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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Off Topic > Politics/Religion/War/Government
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post
It always surprises me that some think USA is so different to other nations; some even speak of “socialist” European nations. Time out! Institution for institution, law for law, business for business, you’d find very similar systems in all these countries. In fact, some US subsidies are far more “socialist” than in other places – probably only France could boast a farm sector with as much government money as the USA. Burke is a pretty long time ago, and so is the “socialism” some still want to draw sword against.
Yeah, you probably should not have bothered. For many of these people screaming "socialist", the facts would just muddy things up.

After all, we are the first free country or people in the history of the world, right? We're number 1, right? Well, in some things. But not in health care and certainly not in balancing our books.

As far as rewarding talent, I think we do a terrible job. We have a one-size fit's all education system that pretty much assumes that the real leaders will either have perfect SATs, a rich dad or a legacy at a certain school. There is enormous untapped talent among our population that simply stays that way.

For that reason, I favor aptitude tests (real ones...not just academic) early and often so that children, parents and educators can not only get an idea of what the future generation workers will be good at, but also what they may enjoy.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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Socialism is only good for the Bureaucrats who are in charge of those socialist programs that were enacted by the socialist democrats in congress.

Remember that one political party (I won't name the Democrats here, they would be offended) are for the poor and they will keep those people poor so that they can point to all of the Socialist programs that were inacted to help the poor. But in reality keeps the poor poor.
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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Ah, sounds like we have a reader of the Santa Claus theory on board:
Jude Wanniski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is, of course, a true premise- that a large percentage of people vote for selfish reasons. A chicken in every pot, etc. - or, a stripping of regulations which will make my company more money.

But this works in so many ways...as to be too complex to just explain by using the usual "welfare" scapegoats.

For instance, we could say the reason for the last Repubican Power machine was twofold....
1. Enough people thought they had enough money that they were convinced that voting for big oil, big corporations and big finance would be beneficial to them.
2. During the recent elections, MANY corporations from the top to bottom "forced" their employees to only support one candidate....I use the word forced in quotes, meaning that it was clear what the CEO and management wanted and that collection of donations from many employees for the "right" party was expected.

Personally, I don't see a difference between that and a poor person voting for their own interests...well, actually, I take that back. I do see a difference, but perhaps not the same one as you.

And again, at the risk of repeating myself, the BIG money from your Fed. Income Tax is for offense, war, the military industrial complex.......and debt resulting from same.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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Originally Posted by Boasun View Post
Socialism is only good for the Bureaucrats who are in charge of those socialist programs that were enacted by the socialist democrats in congress.
Boasun, this may come as a shock to you, but I am as against huge bureaucracy as anybody, and USA has some of the most outrageous. The reasons are – am I swearing in church now? precisely because you are so afraid of appearing to “govern” people. For every new law you include the ifs and buts of every lobby group in sight so as not to tamper with “individual freedom” or “free market” or “the right to defend oneself” and what have you.

The result is a maze of complex and contradictory clauses to micro-manage and run gauntlet between special interests, leaving a law riddled with loopholes. Someone here mentioned the number of taxation laws, a figure too astronomical for simpler minds like me to fathom. In Norway, a couple of hours’ read would get you through the entire tax act, the idea being that adding more paragraphs only creates more loopholes and feeds more tax lawyers. And the cumulative tax load in each country? Roughly the same.

Every time I shop in US, I smile at the knee jerk acknowledgement of “taxes” in the shop window: Prices are shown excluding sales tax, as if to emphasize that the shopkeeper is not the greedy part. So you enter and buy the “$2,99” item knowing that the checkout chick will push another button and come out with three-dollars-and-and-a-silly-cents-figure. In much of Europe, goods must by law be advertised at full price including VAT, so that What You See is What You Get. I’m being petty, but it’s just one of the small examples of illogical, unnecessary complication of simple transactions. So, Boasun, when you mention “bureaucracy” it is US practices I think of first. After that comes the hotel porter who opens a door for me and holds his hand out to be paid for his gargantuan effort. Can’t be on a decent salary, that wouldn’t be “incentive” and “free enterprise”, would it? What age do we live in, Uncle Tom’s cabin?

I recall a controversy from a very different field long ago: The psychologist B.F. Skinner (he with the programmed dogs and pigeons) also had some ideas on how to rehabilitate criminals. A cry went out from the usual corner, condemning his ideas as “inhumane” and “demeaning” because he had the cheek to propose that one work to stop the bad behavior instead of, as everyone else insisted, “understanding” the criminal and making him see the light. Skinner responded by saying his critics are merely defending “weak practices” because they are so blinded by the wish to please everyone.

I think the would-be “free market” US politicians engage in weak practices. Instead of daring to say “This is what we want done” they nudge and beg with a little pork-barreling here, a few token concessions there. They are slaves to their own illusion, that they run a free market economy. Of course they don’t.

I’ll claim, no doubt to loud holler from some, that we in Scandinavia run a tougher free enterprise system than USA. Government here is not afraid to handle essential services, but when something is reserved for business, it has to compete without favor in the world market. Look only to the GM debacle: in its home country, GM has no shame and crawls for handouts. In Sweden, where GM has turned Saab into a lame duck, they made the same overtures. Within the day, the government came back with “No”, point blank. “If Saab is not a viable business, it is not a taxpayer concern.”

Now, who runs the free market economy?

Last edited by OsmundL; 04-08-2009 at 07:48 PM.
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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Sweden does......
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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Acceptable socialism

Why is socialism acceptable if we call it GPS or intercoastal waterway or NOAH?
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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It isn't! But as long as they're taking our money and passing it out to others we might as well get some stuff WE like!

BTW...GPS is a DEFENSE system...we pay people like Garmin for our access to it.
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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It isn't! But as long as they're taking our money and passing it out to others we might as well get some stuff WE like!

BTW...GPS is a DEFENSE system...we pay people like Garmin for our access to it.
How about

police service - was a private service or vigilantes before Robert Peel

fire service - used to be a function of insurance companies

highways - used to be a toll system

While we are at it. You do not pay Garmin for access to GPS. You pay them for the hardware to decode it.

Geomatic engineers and surveyors pay big bucks for GPS receivers that are accurate to millimeters and they pay to rent time.

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Last edited by jackdale; 04-08-2009 at 09:28 PM.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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Originally Posted by OsmundL View Post

Now, who runs the free market economy?
From this summation, it sure does not seem to be Sweden.
Economy of Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saab has been failing for years and it's only symptomatic of GM's judgment that they took them off the Swedish government's hands. Volvo is also unlikely to be around in ten years either, absent massive government subsidy.

Sweden and Yurrup as a whole have one minor little problem for their future economy; who is going to pay all those benefits to the not-working? It certainly won't be Swedes unless you count naturalized citizens resulting from immigration. At current rates, Sweden will cease to be Swedish by mid-century.

And I wonder what is the largest, and growing, group of immigrants to the continent?
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 04-08-2009
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From this summation, it sure does not seem to be Sweden.
Economy of Sweden - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Huh? I read Wikipedia as you suggested. You noticed the part that said:
World Economic Forum 2008 competitiveness index ranks Sweden 4th most competitive, behind Denmark.

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