How our money is spent

[poopdeckpappy]

Originally Posted by lbdavis

Hey,

Hey, I'm with you for the most part

[OsmundL]

I am not buying into any of the other discussions about illegal immigrants – it seems that approving of ILLEGAL immigration is as crazy as approving of anything else illegal.
I just want to challenge all these economic arguments.
“They steal jobs”
“They cost billions”
and so forth. All these arguments on economic grounds are grossly overstated.

For a start, they ignore consumption. Millions of residents, both legal and illegal, live on some kind of benefit. They spend virtually all of it; the general rule is that the less you have, the less you save and the more of it goes into daily consumption. Try taking all these people out of the shopping circle, and you’ll see a storm of bankruptcies and rising unemployment, and a lot less flowing back into government coffers. In fact, because money goes around, the net cost of an underpaid worker or a welfare recipient is only a fraction of what they “receive.”

Second, “stealing jobs and depressing wages.” It would be silly to say they don’t, but it is not so obvious what that means to the rest of us. The poorest take some jobs that would not otherwise go to a higher paid local – instead, the job would go away. If it cost more to have a nanny, a pool cleaner or gardener, you might do without. In another set of jobs, paying more will increase the cost of goods, and that normally leads to less demand and consumption – again, an increase in unemployment. In a third set of jobs, “illegals” make up the seasonal reserve – employed when things are busy, the first to be laid off when things go quiet. They are not “stealing” anyone else’s job – at least not anyone who needs to be in full employment all the time. They do, on the other hand, allow some things to be produced that might otherwise be impossible logistically.
Finally, and this is a two-way sword: if they do depress wages, then it brings USA closer to the Indian model, producing for less. You could say it makes the country more competitive. I don’t buy that argument, however, because it cannot be a great goal to make your country competitive by making your people poorer. Any industrialized nation must compete on better technology, not lower wages, or else it is behaving like a third world country.
So, of all the money reasons given against immigrants, the only I’d really pay credence to is that it builds an underclass and ultimately a more backward country.

[craigimass]

I will not address #1 since I have no experience, however I doubt that you have carded all those folks. A good percentage of who you may term immigrants may be citizens. In the ER here (which I had the unfortunately experience of visiting a couple times this winter), there were probably 50% hispanics...but, then again, they live and work here. As American as you are. Again, I cannot speak for border states.

2. You proved the point you were trying to argue against, or at least it seems so. If what you say is true, they DO pay massive amounts of taxes and ss which they NEVER receive. In business, that goes into the "asset" column.

3. Means nothing at all. Hard working poor people all over the country use check cashing businesses. Lots of them in N. Philly and other poor communities. This may come as a shock, but people with no money don't need a bank acct.
AND, even though I don't claim money is not being sent back......I don't see the point. You can send money anywhere you want. I can send my money to my long lost children in Canada or Ireland. The engineer over here making 200K (from India) can send 3/4 of his money home to mom and dad.

I suppose you don't like thrift. But it surely is not a vice. All the original points stand...no one is claiming that this is a benign act (employers using labor and not checking, etc.), but at the same time you can't count one side of the equation. AND, if you really wanted to solve it you would push for legislation to do so instead of asking for a catapult so you can sling all the "illegal aliens" back over the non-existent fence.

Originally Posted by cardiacpaul

LOL,
Forgive them Lord, they know not of what they do...

1)Walk into ANY ER in ANY "Border state"

2) for those involved in the "trades" industry, tell me, how many applicants do you get with 996, or 919, or 012 as the first 3 digits of their SSN? I have personally seen DOZENS in just the past year. Some of the worst copy work I've ever seen.

3) park in the lot of any "check cashing" or Western Union office on a Friday afternoon.

[PBzeer]

Illegal does seem to have become rather nuanced when talking of immigration. Statistics being statistics, one can find many for both sides of the argument, but none, as Osmund points out, trumps ILLEGAL.

One can trot out all manner of idealistic sentiment, or harsh recrimination, but the fact remains they are still illegal.

They aren't undocumented, because they have no right to any documents, they are simply, illegal.

There is a lawful means of immigration. Those that don't use it are, illegal. Last I knew, anyone preforming an illegal activity is a criminal, punishable by law. (Of course, someone will chime in with when you go 5mph over the speed limit you're breaking the law, and that happens all the time. Fatuous, but they'll trot it out anyway)

[primerate84]

Hear, hear, PB. Illegal is illegal. You cannot get past that basic fact. All subsequent arguments are moot. What part of "illegal" do people not understand?

[imagine2frolic]

When I had my shop in Oakland Ca.. I lived with a Mexican woman for nearly 6 years, and became deeply involved with her family. Over time I saw how they raped our coffers, lied, cheated, and stole. The whole time laughing at Americans.

This not being just the direct family, but I am typing about aunts, uncles, cousins, friends all from Mexico originally. I don't blame anyone for wanting to better their lives, but when you are actually tearing my country apart. I have not a drop of sympathy for your poor relatives left behind in Mexico.

It's not only the resources financially that they abuse, but imagine if 12, or 20 million people stopped burning our fuel, drinking our water, buying groceries, hell even flushng the toilets. These resources would be saved for those who are citizens, or LEGAL immigrants.

You come to my home in the middle of the night through the back door with no permission. It's not going to be pretty for anybody. I feel it should be the same for my country. Just look at Mexico's immigration laws. You want to enter my home. You come to the front door, you ask politely, and don't be a burden to me, or my neighbors.... .....i2f

[craigimass]

Everyone is complaining, but no one is talking about why they didn't support legislation to fix it, nor is anyone proposing a real solution which will work.

Words words words. Illegal, undocumented, aliens - don't matter. What matters is whether you fix something and how you fix it.

Basically, no one supports open borders...or at least it is a very tiny percentage. Ok, so we all agree on that. I just don't get the idea of the ranting and scapegoating which does absolutely no good. In business and in life, you have to either solve problems or ignore them (to your peril).

The catapult will not work. No matter how angry you are. So, get to work and have your representatives actually work out a solution which will head in the right direction. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

[PBzeer]

Yeah, let's just give 'em amnesty. It worked so well last time, here we are again.

[Capnblu]

I am always amazed at peoples abilities to hate a whole race of people, to satisfy their personal point of view. Do you suppose the natives, whom were here originally, would also like to throw your rainbow colored behind back to the country, your ancestors came from? Give me a break. Bet you don't care about that do you? Don't you think for a second your LEGAL population, is also involved in criminal activities? Or are they ok?

[poopdeckpappy]

Originally Posted by craigimass

Everyone is complaining, but no one is talking about why they didn't support legislation to fix it,

75-80% of us supported and support legislation to fix it, our non representing representitives won't listen because it's a threat to there future employment

nor is anyone proposing a real solution which will work.

a strong military presence at the border and offshore will send a message, but again, that has been ignored also