I am not buying into any of the other discussions about illegal immigrants – it seems that approving of ILLEGAL immigration is as crazy as approving of anything else illegal.
I just want to challenge all these economic arguments.
“They steal jobs”
“They cost billions”
and so forth. All these arguments on economic grounds are grossly overstated.
For a start, they ignore consumption. Millions of residents, both legal and illegal, live on some kind of benefit. They spend virtually all of it; the general rule is that the less you have, the less you save and the more of it goes into daily consumption. Try taking all these people out of the shopping circle, and you’ll see a storm of bankruptcies and rising unemployment, and a lot less flowing back into government coffers. In fact, because money goes around, the net cost of an underpaid worker or a welfare recipient is only a fraction of what they “receive.”
Second, “stealing jobs and depressing wages.” It would be silly to say they don’t, but it is not so obvious what that means to the rest of us. The poorest take some jobs that would not otherwise go to a higher paid local – instead, the job would go away. If it cost more to have a nanny, a pool cleaner or gardener, you might do without. In another set of jobs, paying more will increase the cost of goods, and that normally leads to less demand and consumption – again, an increase in unemployment. In a third set of jobs, “illegals” make up the seasonal reserve – employed when things are busy, the first to be laid off when things go quiet. They are not “stealing” anyone else’s job – at least not anyone who needs to be in full employment all the time. They do, on the other hand, allow some things to be produced that might otherwise be impossible logistically.
Finally, and this is a two-way sword: if they do depress wages, then it brings USA closer to the Indian model, producing for less. You could say it makes the country more competitive. I don’t buy that argument, however, because it cannot be a great goal to make your country competitive by making your people poorer. Any industrialized nation must compete on better technology, not lower wages, or else it is behaving like a third world country.
So, of all the money reasons given against immigrants, the only I’d really pay credence to is that it builds an underclass and ultimately a more backward country.
LOL,
Forgive them Lord, they know not of what they do...
1)Walk into ANY ER in ANY "Border state"
2) for those involved in the "trades" industry, tell me, how many applicants do you get with 996, or 919, or 012 as the first 3 digits of their SSN? I have personally seen DOZENS in just the past year. Some of the worst copy work I've ever seen.
3) park in the lot of any "check cashing" or Western Union office on a Friday afternoon.
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We are not primarily on earth to see through one another, but to see one another through
Some people are like slinkies: not really good for anything... but you can't help laughing when you push them down the stairs
I will not address #1 since I have no experience, however I doubt that you have carded all those folks. A good percentage of who you may term immigrants may be citizens. In the ER here (which I had the unfortunately experience of visiting a couple times this winter), there were probably 50% hispanics...but, then again, they live and work here. As American as you are. Again, I cannot speak for border states.
2. You proved the point you were trying to argue against, or at least it seems so. If what you say is true, they DO pay massive amounts of taxes and ss which they NEVER receive. In business, that goes into the "asset" column.
3. Means nothing at all. Hard working poor people all over the country use check cashing businesses. Lots of them in N. Philly and other poor communities. This may come as a shock, but people with no money don't need a bank acct.
AND, even though I don't claim money is not being sent back......I don't see the point. You can send money anywhere you want. I can send my money to my long lost children in Canada or Ireland. The engineer over here making 200K (from India) can send 3/4 of his money home to mom and dad.
I suppose you don't like thrift. But it surely is not a vice. All the original points stand...no one is claiming that this is a benign act (employers using labor and not checking, etc.), but at the same time you can't count one side of the equation. AND, if you really wanted to solve it you would push for legislation to do so instead of asking for a catapult so you can sling all the "illegal aliens" back over the non-existent fence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiacpaul
LOL,
Forgive them Lord, they know not of what they do...
1)Walk into ANY ER in ANY "Border state"
2) for those involved in the "trades" industry, tell me, how many applicants do you get with 996, or 919, or 012 as the first 3 digits of their SSN? I have personally seen DOZENS in just the past year. Some of the worst copy work I've ever seen.
3) park in the lot of any "check cashing" or Western Union office on a Friday afternoon.
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"I do not conceive we can exist long as a nation without having lodged somewhere a power which will pervade the whole Union in as energetic a manner as the authority of the state governments extends over the individual states"
-George Washington
Illegal does seem to have become rather nuanced when talking of immigration. Statistics being statistics, one can find many for both sides of the argument, but none, as Osmund points out, trumps ILLEGAL.
One can trot out all manner of idealistic sentiment, or harsh recrimination, but the fact remains they are still illegal.
They aren't undocumented, because they have no right to any documents, they are simply, illegal.
There is a lawful means of immigration. Those that don't use it are, illegal. Last I knew, anyone preforming an illegal activity is a criminal, punishable by law. (Of course, someone will chime in with when you go 5mph over the speed limit you're breaking the law, and that happens all the time. Fatuous, but they'll trot it out anyway)
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
Hear, hear, PB. Illegal is illegal. You cannot get past that basic fact. All subsequent arguments are moot. What part of "illegal" do people not understand?
When I had my shop in Oakland Ca.. I lived with a Mexican woman for nearly 6 years, and became deeply involved with her family. Over time I saw how they raped our coffers, lied, cheated, and stole. The whole time laughing at Americans.
This not being just the direct family, but I am typing about aunts, uncles, cousins, friends all from Mexico originally. I don't blame anyone for wanting to better their lives, but when you are actually tearing my country apart. I have not a drop of sympathy for your poor relatives left behind in Mexico.
It's not only the resources financially that they abuse, but imagine if 12, or 20 million people stopped burning our fuel, drinking our water, buying groceries, hell even flushng the toilets. These resources would be saved for those who are citizens, or LEGAL immigrants.
You come to my home in the middle of the night through the back door with no permission. It's not going to be pretty for anybody. I feel it should be the same for my country. Just look at Mexico's immigration laws. You want to enter my home. You come to the front door, you ask politely, and don't be a burden to me, or my neighbors.... .....i2f
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20 MPH ain't fast unless, you do it in a 1000sq 3/2 house on 10foot waves
craig...
i know this will be ignored by you, I mean, why trouble your head with actual facts and experiences, right?
Its been estimated by Parkland Hospital in Dallas, Texas (700 miles from the closest border) that out of over 16,000 births, greater than 12,000 were to "undocumented" women. (upwards of 30% of those to "repeat" moms.
Rosa was an ER admissions tech (yeah, that axe in your head has to hurt like hell, fill these forms out and return them here).
The identity "deception" was rampant. One day the patient would be Louis Juan, the next week, Juan Louis (same bogus address). They had a program to verify address location as valid, until the hospital legal dept put the kibosh on it. As you may know, Valid ID is NOT required, nor is it necessary to receive "emergency" treatment. Trouble is, only in triage can that determination be medically determined. In fact, it is in violation of federal law to refuse emergency treatment.
So, let us consider Juan coming into the ER. He gives an address that is in the middle of a shopping plaza, no SSN, no ID.
He has a cold. He's hacking up green stuff. Are you, or the nurse, or the PA going to cut him loose? No, you're going to get a sputum test, & chest x-ray at the minimum.
Now, who orders the x-ray in the hospital? Not a triage nurse or PA, you need one of those pesky "Me-Dokters" to do that.
Average ER bill for an undocumented? over 1750.00
Who ya gunna bill? The piggly wiggly store address you sent the bill to? naw, thought not.
Not to worry, his baby momma and the lil one will be in next week for an earache. Only problem is, he ain't never been there before, see? Bueno, thought so.
Lets add in that the second largest source of peso supply coming into our neighbors to the south is the good old US Dollar coming from money transfers from outfits like Western Union. Thats the point.
Yes, we need better "potential employee" verificaton, but, we already have a voluntary program for employers to check SSN's. The problem with the program is two fold.
1) it turns human resources into INS agents, and
2) Obama and the "crew" have shut off funding and there will be no more updates to the known database.
Thre was a move afoot in Flower Mound, Texas (dallas 'burb) to require valid ID to rent an apartment. Decent idea, right? be able to run a credit/background check, Have someway to sue the scofflaws that skip out, right? no worries, right?
Please don't fire off the "jobs americans won't do," or the tired "they contribute" bullshite, it don't wash with those of us that live in the real world.
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We are not primarily on earth to see through one another, but to see one another through
Some people are like slinkies: not really good for anything... but you can't help laughing when you push them down the stairs
Everyone is complaining, but no one is talking about why they didn't support legislation to fix it, nor is anyone proposing a real solution which will work.
Words words words. Illegal, undocumented, aliens - don't matter. What matters is whether you fix something and how you fix it.
Basically, no one supports open borders...or at least it is a very tiny percentage. Ok, so we all agree on that. I just don't get the idea of the ranting and scapegoating which does absolutely no good. In business and in life, you have to either solve problems or ignore them (to your peril).
The catapult will not work. No matter how angry you are. So, get to work and have your representatives actually work out a solution which will head in the right direction. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
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"I do not conceive we can exist long as a nation without having lodged somewhere a power which will pervade the whole Union in as energetic a manner as the authority of the state governments extends over the individual states"
-George Washington
Yeah, let's just give 'em amnesty. It worked so well last time, here we are again.
__________________
John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
.....i2f
