Kids vs Unions

[PBzeer]

With the ending of the DC voucher program, Obama has put the lie to his vow of "whatever works" for education. 1,700 children, mostly black, have been thrown under the bus to appease the teacher unions.

For those unfamiliar with the DC voucher program, here it is in a nutshell. Using a lottery, 1,700 families were awarded scholarships (vouchers) of $7,500 to be used at the school of their choice. The $15 million cost of the program was funded by Congress, entirely separate from any funding for the DC public school system (which spends $15,000 per student).

By making personal sacrifices, these 1,700 families were able to apply the vouchers to enrolling their children in the same private schools used by most of Congress and Obama. As the progress report (suppressed until after congressional action to kill the program) shows, the program was a success. Raising not just scores and comprehension levels, but in inspiring a sense of hope for a better future as well. A success that was anthema to the well-heeled, politically active teacher unions.

A successful education program vs continued financial support from teacher unions.

Unions 1, Kids 0.

[xort]

If you educate the kids, they might not vote for stupid policies. if they are dumber than a doorstop, chances are extremely high they will vote liberal

[LittleMissMagic]

This is a sad thing for these families. Imagine having your child in a good school only to have the government pull the rug out from under you, sending them back to a DC public school.

[craigimass]

Bad bad man......
If only we could get rid of all the Unions, then we could pay all the teachers 22-29K per year (yes, some...in fact many....private schools pay this....I should know, my daughter works at one - and that is with a MASTERS degree!)

Oh, look at many of these private schools....and you will see that the President of the School gets to live in house (often a Mansion) free.....along with various other perks which I'm sure everyone here would stand behind taxpayer money going to.

For the record, I think tenure should be done away with...or at least heavily adjusted. Unions should be legal, but not mandatory. As it is now, both sides of the coin exist - in many places they are mandatory, and in many places you can't have one (without getting fired, threatened, etc.)....

Well, another problem that won't be fixed in my lifetime. Maybe PB can go to DC on the 4th and hold up placards denouncing this policy.

[Selkirk]

Originally Posted by craigimass

Bad bad man......
If only we could get rid of all the Unions, then we could pay all the teachers 22-29K per year (yes, some...in fact many....private schools pay this....I should know, my daughter works at one - and that is with a MASTERS degree!).............

If your daughter works at one for 22K/year she is doing it by choice. The only thing preventing her from finding more profitable employment is her.

Ward Churchill, for Christ's sake, has a masters. You don't get extra money just because you have a masters. You get it through performance. Daughter knew what teaching paid when she signed up.

[craigimass]

The teacher who was the one who set my daughter off on her "real" career also made 25K - he taught at a Friends school.

Yes, it's a choice....of course.

Luckily she and my other daughter are both in the position where they can afford to do "public service" for 1/2 to 1/3 of what they are worth. For those who actually decide to make a living at teaching....well, those big bad unions definitely help.

We could say that the folks who work at Wal-Mart do so by choice also. That's not the point. Teachers in MANY areas of the country are underpaid - the whole state of Florida, for instance.......

DC has the worse schools in the country on the elementary level...but that is only because it is one city as an entity. There are many "dumb" states - or at least some are dumber than others.

Actual graduates of colleges are on the map below.....the darker are higher college rates, the lighter are lower. See any trends?

As to who tends to vote which way, all of the top ten law schools are in "blue" states. 8 out of 10 (really 9 - cause one is in leftist Austin) of the top engineering schools are in blue states. 9 out of 10 of the top medical schools are in states that went blue last election....

The highest incomes are in states that went blue....in general.

So I certainly can't see the theory about having bad schools turn out liberal voters being true. I think that when people go to NO SCHOOL, then they may make bad decisions.

In any case, I would assume DC has much bigger problems.....if all of those kids went to private schools - well, there can't be room for 1/10 of them.....

But, I guess that all fits in with privatize everything - social security, the military contractors, the jails, etc. etc...

Heck, if you want to see what happens when the privatize the jails, check out this story. Judges were getting paid to send HUNDREDS of kids to detention centers which they were invested in.....
Wilkes-Barre judges accused of jailing kids for cash - PennLive.com
Yep, that's what happens when you use the profit motive for all services.....

[craigimass]

oops, here is the college chart

[PBzeer]

From the 5th grade, through my first semester in college, all I wanted to do was be a history teacher. Over the course of those 8 years, it never once occurred to me to wonder what it paid.

I'm not advocating privatizing the school system. Private schools aren't for everyone, but 40 + years of steady decline says something has to be done. The teacher unions can either be part of the solution, or remain a part of the problem.

And btw, nice chart, except it's missing a couple of states.

[PBzeer]

I find it somewhat odd, that those who forever speak of nuance, always cast the thoughts of others in absolutes. Actually, I don't find it odd, I find it typical of those who are unwilling to address a point on it's merits, but seek to dismiss it instead.

Thusly, rather than address the issue of unions in the attempts to improve education, we get the "anti-union" screed. Though it was never suggested that we should do away with them. So now, rather than discuss how best to address the problems in education, the focus is about unions and all they do for the poor downtrodden teachers. Hardly conducive to finding a solution.

[craigimass]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

I find it somewhat odd, that those who forever speak of nuance, always cast the thoughts of others in absolutes.

Is this a nuance?
Xort="If you educate the kids, they might not vote for stupid policies. if they are dumber than a doorstop, chances are extremely high they will vote liberal"


I assume that kind of non-solution is what you are getting at.

Yes, I'm all for solutions.
My kids went to a top suburban school district - one that send kids to Harvard, tops in sports, etc. etc - lots of money and support.

Yet they claim (and I believe) they learned almost nothing in High School and they hated it. They did enjoy elementary and middle school (public other than one year in Friends).

The problem is so much bigger than unions or tenure. It is just one more thing that we ignored while we fought wars, stashed money, worked hard.....etc.

Our schools have largely worked on a isolationist ideal - that we WOULD NOT have to compete with the rest of the world. But we do.

Once again, I think change comes....but slowly. Schools have to stop being "factories" which churn out people prepared for some academics, but NOT for life or even for occupation.

I have not studied the Danish model, but when I was there they mentioned that all kids were given aptitude tests so they knew what type of career they might enjoy and prosper at. These types of things should be taken into account.

A little example of this is ADD, ADHD and Dyslexia. Some of the top business people, entepreneurs, inventors and programmers - to say nothing of creatives - would be classified and given drugs (powerful meth) so they can sit still in class. Yet many of these people are actually having their spirits beaten DOWN. Imagine how well Da Vinci would do being forced to follow the straight and narrow?

But what is, IS. At this point it is up to parents to be the advocates for their children and help steer them through the imperfect system.

I would wager - that giving EVERY student $8K to go to school where ever they wanted, would not solve the problem either. Actually, where I live students are allowed to go to schools outside the district...by choice.

Can someone steer me to models of 300 million population where they don't have public schools and give vouchers...and it works well?

Here's my first shot at a practical solution. MAKE ALL COLLEGE FREE. That is, based on performance of the student and capability to get in. The result will be kids and parents who will try MUCH harder to perform.

I think college is free to the qualified in a good part of the western world.

That is a carrot solution.....not a stick. The vouchers are tough for a number of reasons, although I think a limited amount of them would serve a good purpose. As mentioned before, there is not enough of a system of private schools to support this - also, money get's take away from public schools the they suffer further. It would also appear the profiteering may come into play - maybe most private schools are now based on excellence, but multiply the number of them and put too much cash into the system...and you'll have a situation like those judges...