The real Obamacare plan

[US27inKS]

Originally Posted by TropicCat

Pointless statement not relevant to this discussion. Frankly I normally don't respond to either Nazis or White supremist but I'm up early this morning and am bored.

Actually it's not completely pointless, he just doesn't make his point very well. Our country is supposed to be a republic, meaning that the states should have more power than the federal government. I think it could be easily argued that they don't. Being inarticulate makes him neither a nazi or a white supremest.

Just to educate you there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes, equality and freedom. These principles are reflected by all citizens being equal before the law, and have equal access to power. Additionally, all citizens are able to enjoy legitimized freedoms and liberties, which are protected by the bill of rights and the constitution. If you don't care to participate in our democracy, I invite you to relocate. I'm certain you can find an African Nation with a dictator where you'll feel more comfortable. This is almost a direct quote from wikipedia. If you don't know what wikipedia is... google it. If you can't google, if I were you I wouldn't bother to reply to this post

While those are nice principles, in reality we haven't had them for quite a while. We'll start with equality before the law. You cannot put forward a legitimate argument that people with money, fame, or political clout are treated the same under the law as those without. Two good examples that come to mind are OJ Simpson and Ted Kennedy. OJ was acquitted for a crime that 99.9% of the rest of america would have been easily convicted. If he lacked the resources to put forward a large team of high priced attorneys, he would have been rotting jail long before now. Ted Kennedy had an unfortunate accident that killed a young woman. Whether he had been drinking, or had been drunk will never be known. It certainly is not an unreasonable guess that he had been drunk at the time, and didn't report the accident in order to give himself time to sober up. Had he not been Ted Kennedy, he would have faced much more serious charges than he did, and would not have had a 2 month sentence suspended.

Equal access to power? Show me one country on earth in which money does not buy power. There are people who have money who don't seek power, but there are not those in power without money or political friends who supply them money.

So here we have another misinformed poster. One who advocates the elimination of Medicare? Also the termination of veteran benefits? Why not get rid of Social Security while you're at it? We have the worst health care of developed Nations and are now ranked 37th in medical care. People like yourself must be proud of this? Of course not, your sponsers just didn't bother to tell you and none of you guys bothered to look it up

While I don't advocate the elimination of medicare or SS, there were better ways to implement both of these programs. When the medicare concept was sold to the american people, the cost was said to not exceed 9 billion ever. This was typical washington fantasy, just as the projected costs of public health care are. Medicare is very expensive and fraught with fraud. For a program that was supposed to cost the taxpayers no more than 9 billion to have an estimated 60 billion in fraud annually shows that the federal government cannot control and doesn't care to control costs.

SS is also a program that could have been implemented in a better way. It is the definition of a Ponzi scheme. The costs are high, and the benefits are low. What else needs to be said?

Government is of course the answer. We are the only Western country without a national health care plan. Why? You said it yourself later in your very own post. Lobbyists. The Insurance, Pharmaceutical and health care companies are making so much money off the backs of American's health problems, they can afford to buy every Senator and Congressman they want. This is public record as are all "campaign contributions. Look it up.

While health insurance companies are clearly against HR3200 and for good reason, pharmaceutical companies are not. In fact there have been many secret meetings between Obama and the pharmaceutical lobby. The Huffington post obtained a copy of a memo outlining Pharma's deal with Obama in order to give their support. One of the items was that washington would not seek to negotiate costs of drugs. So where is the big savings there? You should look that up.

Here's something else you didn't bother to check, the profit margin insurance carriers, drug companies and health care companies make. Go look it up. Of course a government progam is cheaper and better. it's why these companies are fighting it.

Since a single payer system is what the dems are really after, lets look at what cost savings we'll supposedly be getting. Health care companies won't make any less, the insurance companies already beat them down on price. The drug companies won't make any less, because Obama promised not to negotiate prices in return for their support. That leaves the insurance companies profit to work with. Medicare is basically a government run insurance company. Since medicare is already riddled with inefficiency and fraud, why would it be different if the government had control of all insurance?

You're free to think anything you like. This is the great advantage we Americans have. Our Bill of rights guarantee free speech...unless of course in the process you violate my constitutional rights. It's the reason why it's illegal in this country to yell 'Fire' in a theater. And that's exactly what shouting down other points of view is when the goal is to stop any kind of civil dialogue. It's unAmerican.

Funny, it didn't seem quite so un-american to dems when it was anti war protesters shouting down politicians, burning likeness of Bush, and throwing rocks at politicians motorcades did it? Then it was just concerned citizens exercising their constitutional right to free speech.

You don't repect our constitution, you don't want constitutional rights for all Americans. Well, Americans don't tolerate unAmerican activities, so you must be some kind of foreigner here. Either that or you dropped out of high school before they gave you a Civics class.

Respect for our constitution should also include respect for what our founding fathers intended it to be. The federal government has far outreached its constitutionally legal scope. Limited government is what our founding fathers had in mind, and laid out the powers of the federal government in the constitution. Under the guise of "promote the general welfare" the federal government has found a way to extend its power into virtually every facet of our lives. This is not what our founding fathers intended, and it's not what is spelled out in our constitution.

We need civil discussion not a bunch of ignorant knee jerk conservatitives preventing discussion. This is America, not Nazi Germany.

Funny you should equate fiscal conservatives with Nazi Germany. Perhaps you should look at the domestic policy of the Nazi party. Remember, Nazi is the english pronunciation of the german acronym for the The National Socialist German Workers' Party. The more socialized we become, the more Nazi we become.

The more aspects of our lives that the government has control over, the more powerful it becomes. Our country was founded on principles of limited power of the federal government for good reason. You advocate equality of access to power, but insist that we hand over even more power to fewer people. It doesn't make sense to me.

For the record, I have a GED. I took a few college courses, but only what I needed to keep my teaching job. I now have a successful auto repair business and am working on purchasing another piece of commercial real estate. I will in fact be paying for this health care mess.

[badsanta]

Tropic cat, You brought up some good points until you made it personal. But pointing out sentence structure and misspelling UFOs and Kenya, talk about shouting some one down. "And that's exactly what shouting down other points of view is when the goal is to stop any kind of civil dialogue. It's unAmerican." True, so true

[ssneade]

Originally Posted by TropicCat

Government is of course the answer....

You're free to think anything you like. This is the great advantage we Americans have. Our Bill of rights guarantee free speech...unless of course in the process you violate my constitutional rights. It's the reason why it's illegal in this country to yell 'Fire' in a theater. And that's exactly what shouting down other points of view is when the goal is to stop any kind of civil dialogue. It's unAmerican.

of course a socialist would think only government is the answer. socialism is un-American, why don't you relocate? i'll have my country just as it is, thank you....

you must be either a lawyer or a politician, because all you seem to want is more from the general public to fill your own coffers. get a life....

you are just another individual trying to escape responsibility. i'm not impressed with your grammar, nor your meticulous grasp of spelling ability....

i am quite informed, sir. also have enough education to be able to live comfortably. i also can take care of my family in times of crisis. could you? doubtful....

i think without government, you would starve.....

[TropicCat]

Originally Posted by badsanta

Tropic cat, You brought up some good points until you made it personal. But pointing out sentence structure and misspelling UFOs and Kenya, talk about shouting some one down. "And that's exactly what shouting down other points of view is when the goal is to stop any kind of civil dialogue. It's unAmerican." True, so true

You're right, I did make it personal. Depriving me of my civil rights is very personal to me. it should be to every American.

[US27inKS]

Originally Posted by TropicCat

You're right, I did make it personal. Depriving me of my civil rights is very personal to me. it should be to every American.

Since when is free health care a civil right? I don't recall seeing it in the constitution, the bill of rights or any other civil rights law. Would you please provide a link to the law that grants free health care as a civil right?

[TropicCat]

Originally Posted by ssneade

of course a socialist would think only government is the answer. socialism is un-American, why don't you relocate? i'll have my country just as it is, thank you....

Really? America as it is ? We're bankrupt. eight years of bush left us $8 trillion in debt. The least the guy could have done is left America the way he found it. 50 million people don't have health insurance and we're in the middle of a near depression.

Originally Posted by ssneade

you must be either a lawyer or a politician, because all you seem to want is more from the general public to fill your own coffers. get a life....

I though so. .. Would you care to debate? Or are you just another high school dropout? For the record, I'm neither. I'm probably old enough to be your Grandfather, and I've lived through enough life experience that I don't need a politician telling me what we need. I tell them what we need... I'm an American, and proud of it, although it used to mean more to folks than it seems to these days.

Originally Posted by ssneade

i think without government, you would starve.....

Apparently, unlike yourself, I own my business, I attend church every Sunday, read the papers and understand the issues our country is facing. I care about those who are unemployed and those without health insurance. You might say that I am my brother's keeper. I also understand that under the last administration our standard of living plummeted and I also understand the mess they handed off to the current administration.

I think you need to do some reading. Catch up on the real issues instead of worrying about things you don't seem to grasp.

[TropicCat]

Originally Posted by US27inKS

Since when is free health care a civil right?

I thought you read what I wrote. When some neanderthal with an IQ of an onion, shouts me down in a town meeting, I'm deprived of my rights.

Interesting. half my post was defending our rights and the necessity of having civil discourse. Yet you've now put yourself in a position of defending a poster who states that he will shout down any discourse. Our posts, meaning yours and mine are in fact civil discourse, and discussing a plan on it's Merritt or deficiencies. Neither is possible when the minority has an IQ of an ameba and shouts all others down in town meetings.

Frankly my post was specifically addressed to ssneade, who can obviously type his own posts. However if you choose to defend him, it's fine with me. it is a free country despite the likes of ssneade and company.

Regardless of what you think of the proposed single payer health plan, it has to be better than 50 million Americans going without any insurance at all. Your point seems to be that Washington is lying about the costs of the proposed plan. Surprisingly I agree with you. A better way to approach this is to figure out how to pay for it, not to defend the indefensible 'let them eat cake' point that conservatives are selling.

And while I'm on this subject... you misspoke. Did you think I would just let it pass? Of course you're probably just repeating a conservative talking point, but don't you think you should have checked it out first?

So, if this is a conservative myth let me dispel it right now. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, their latest data available, which in case you don't have a calender handy was done under a Republican, conservative administration. It's much easier to just say the numbers are wrong than to have to prove it. That's why the racists are still shouting for Obama's birth certificate. For the record ... DeNavas-Walt, C.B. Proctor, and J. Smith. wrote the paper "Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007". for the U.S. Census Bureau who released it in, August 2008.

Now, add to that the 14000 Americans who are losing their health insurance every day since the report was written (1000 days ago) and that's where the 50 million person number comes from. Well not exactly, I subtracted the 9 million illegal aliens from the number just so you wouldn't have to bring it up.


Government data. Republican government data.

[ssneade]

Originally Posted by TropicCat

I thought you read what I wrote. When some neanderthal with an IQ of an onion, shouts me down in a town meeting, I'm deprived of my rights.

Interesting. half my post was defending our rights and the necessity of having civil discourse. Yet you've now put yourself in a position of defending a poster who states that he will shout down any discourse. Our posts, meaning yours and mine are in fact civil discourse, and discussing a plan on it's Merritt or deficiencies. Neither is possible when the minority has an IQ of an ameba and shouts all others down in town meetings.

Frankly my post was specifically addressed to ssneade, who can obviously type his own posts. However if you choose to defend him, it's fine with me. it is a free country despite the likes of ssneade and company.

Regardless of what you think of the proposed single payer health plan, it has to be better than 50 million Americans going without any insurance at all. Your point seems to be that Washington is lying about the costs of the proposed plan. Surprisingly I agree with you. A better way to approach this is to figure out how to pay for it, not to defend the indefensible 'let them eat cake' point that conservatives are selling.

And while I'm on this subject... you misspoke. Did you think I would just let it pass? Of course you're probably just repeating a conservative talking point, but don't you think you should have checked it out first?

So, if this is a conservative myth let me dispel it right now. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, their latest data available, which in case you don't have a calender handy was done under a Republican, conservative administration. It's much easier to just say the numbers are wrong than to have to prove it. That's why the racists are still shouting for Obama's birth certificate. For the record ... DeNavas-Walt, C.B. Proctor, and J. Smith. wrote the paper "Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2007". for the U.S. Census Bureau who released it in, August 2008.

Now, add to that the 14000 Americans who are losing their health insurance every day since the report was written (1000 days ago) and that's where the 50 million person number comes from. Well not exactly, I subtracted the 9 million illegal aliens from the number just so you wouldn't have to bring it up.


Government data. Republican government data.

this guy MUST be related to craig. sorry guy, i wasn't trying to be personal 'til you started running your big dumb mouth. i'm quite sure you have accomplished nothing in life, but to make others miserable with your socialist rhetoric....

look, if you promise to play nice, i'll try to humor you by listening to what you have to say, before i call you an old codger who seems to be battling Alzheimer disease. so many have hidden behind the cross for protection, when all the while they were driving nails....

leave your religion out of this. your government demands it....

[ssneade]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has launched an urgent effort to raise $100,000 by Monday to help combat what she calls GOP "smears" about health care reform.

"Republican opponents of reform are coming out with one outrageous smear after the next, all aimed at derailing our progress. We must be able to counter their special interest-funded attacks and set the record straight," Pelosi wrote in a letter to Democratic supporters.

"That's why I have set a goal of raising $100,000 in grassroots donations before the August FEC fundraising deadline," says Pelosi.

Pelosi and Democrats are clearly worried that they've lost momentum on health care reform this month, and many in her caucus have been crushed by opposition at town hall events.

Pelosi's appeal is aimed at small donors, and she asks for donations of $5 or more in her letter.

Democrats for weeks have been on the defensive, accusing Republicans of mischaracterizing their reform effort. President Barack Obama fired back several weeks ago after Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), a key Republican negotiator on the Senate Finance Committee, said the Democratic push threatened to "pull the plug on grandma."

Now, Pelosi is pushing back.

"Republicans are doing everything they can to spread the lies they hope will kill health insurance reform," Pelosi writes at the end of the e-mail. "Please make a generous financial contribution to help Democrats get the truth out and fight GOP smears."

Read more: Nancy Pelosi asks for $100K to fight 'smears' - Alex Isenstadt - POLITICO.com

[ssneade]

By Andrea Tantaros

Wednesday, August 26th 2009, 6:01 PM

President Obama's health care "plan" is going down like a handful of tacks, and the Democratic Party, experiencing the political equivalent of a nervous breakdown, is poised to commence a civil war over health reform that could virtually tear the party's leaders to shreds.

The White House has made a series of irreversible blunders that have left the party, and the President, in peril.

* Message schizophrenia. The talking points coming out of the White House these days are harder to follow than a Jessica Simpson autobiography. First, there was the moral imperative that it wanted to move forward with universal health care to cover the 46 million uninsured. This number is misleading. Many of the uninsured are offered insurance and don't take it, and millions are illegal aliens. More troubling is the fact that the former director of the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) says that 43% have the means to buy insurance but don't. CBO projections among the uninsured in 2009: 18% will be eligible for but not enrolled in Medicaid, and 30% will be offered, but will decline, coverage from an employer, leaving the electorate questioning a full overhaul.

When the original argument fell flat, the White House quickly shifted to an economic imperative that its plan would help cut the rising cost of care. Not so, according to the CBO, which found that the Democratic "plan" will raise - not cut - costs. Nothing blows up a sales pitch like getting mugged by reality.

* Hubris. There's a proverb that states that pride comes before a fall. Not only did Obama's overbearing pride cause him to grossly underestimate how savvy seniors and the entire American electorate is when it comes to health care, it also allowed him to overestimate his own understanding of the issue - particularly from a purely political standpoint.

* Playground Tactics. Insults are generally reserved for people who cut you off while driving. They aren't smart strategy when used against the people who elected you.

The left discounted the initial concern and anger of its constituents and insulted them by calling them "angry mobs" and "evil." When you put forth a plan that is baked with every possible political poison from half a trillion in tax hikes to penalties for small business to fund it, you can't expect anything but legitimate fury.

Worse yet, as polls show support for health reform declining along with Obama's approval numbers, the administration continues to ignore the public outcry. It is either in serious denial, doesn't give a damn about losing Congress to Republicans in 2010, or is more beholden to the far left than one could have ever imagined.

* Poor Planning. Obama and his team never expected to have to fight "evildoers" all August long over universal health care. The President's presumption anticipated a bill being sent to his desk the first week in August. In fact, that's exactly what Dr. Obama ordered. And because they didn't think they'd experience any pushback, they never had a real blueprint, especially when it came time to explain how they were going to pay for it. Cutting $300 billion from Medicare would result in fewer services for seniors. That's not exactly going to move the masses.

* History. They ignored it. What's the saying? "Smart people learn from their mistakes, while wise people learn from the mistakes of others." The Obama team didn't learn from the mistakes of the Clintons when it comes to trying to reform health care. One look back at the 1990s would have shown the left that the more people hear about drastic changes like a government option in health care, the more they dislike it.

Again we see the arrogance. Or perhaps it was ignorance. Notice a theme here?

The next few weeks will be pivotal for Obama and his credibility. There is little room for error. That means he'll need two plans: one for the nation, and one to protect his political health.

Tantaros is a conservative columnist and commentator. She regularly appears on the Fox News Channel.

Read more: President Obama's arrogance is killing his health care plan