The real Obamacare plan

[PBzeer]

Without the New Deal, we wouldn't have gotten to the Great Society, and without the Great Society we wouldn't now be at the Big F****** Deal (courtesy of Joe the Gaffe). They are all steps down the road, not the Apocalypse. Each step we give up a little bit more to the government until eventually, we'll have nothing left to give.

We are at a point now where I think people are starting to see this incrementalism for what it is thanks to the health care debate.

[bljones]

Okay, folks, we all know how America has gotten to where it is, so what is the option? With all due respect , I hear lots of complaining but no tangible, real solutions. If you don't like the ideas the other guy has, you better have some better ideas! If you are gonna throw the bums out, you better have a better set of bums with a better set of ideas ready to replace them.
So, come on, give me some hope- show me a platform.
Show me how your ideas will work better than the current administration, and show me the long-term ramifications.
In other words, if your whole platform is "smaller government" then show me how you plan to do it, and what you think the end result will be.
America has always been about grassroots change, so...
Show me America is still America.

[PBzeer]

Smaller government is the pivot. Though less government works as well. But that's why the "entitlement mentality" works so well as an enabler. Less government means it "gives" you less. And we all know what happens when anybody even proposes a commonsense solution to the unsustainability of the current entitlements, "They're taking away YOUR Social Security or Medicare". And until they collapse under the weight of bankruptcy, it's almost impossible to do anything. And when we have no other choice, it will probably be the GOP that has to do what's necessary, while the Dems demonize them for it.

It's a long slog though, beating into the wind. The first step is getting actual fiscal conservatives elected. But, harder even then that, is keeping them on the straight and narrow on fiscal policy instead of morphing into Dem Lite like they did after 2000. Once you do that, then you have to start dismantling unnecessary bureaucracies and limit government intervention in the marketplace. No, that doesn't mean doing away with all regulation, there are, and should be, necessary regulations. (One reform I can think of easily is making government accounting practices meet the same standards they make private businesses meet.)

That's the beginning. But, along the way, you have to educate people on not just what needs to be done, but why and what it means for their future. Not with glib slogans and fancy spin, bt with everyday common words. Probably the hardest thing to do will be regaining the trust of the people, and that will take time. But then, we didn't get to this point overnight, and it won't be solved quickly.

[PBzeer]

As I said above, one of the first things I would do is require the government to meet the same standards private business has to meet. Things like no more off-budget, paying for one program with money from another, appropriation bills can't have non-budget or riders not pertaining to the appropriation. Heck, no one in Washington can tell you where all the money is or how it's being spent. That has to end.

We need either some form of flat tax, or a national sales tax (not both). Which ever, needs to be simple and clear. If we have a flat tax of say 10% above a certain poverty level, then that's what should be paid. No deductions, no loopholes on anything that produces income for an individual. Though that would be simpler than a sales tax, I think a sales tax is a more moral form of taxation.

Another thing I would do (and surprise, it involves the gubbmint) is after a certain date, anyone who starts paying SS taxes would have their money and the employer donation put into the government Thrift Savings Plan, as well as any contribution they wish to make. (I'm not going to try to explain the TSP here, you can check their website about it, but it spans almost no risk to high risk) That would be their SS.

These are only ideas, not fleshed out, detailed proposals, but, they are a start.

[xort]

bl

contrary to what you hear in the media, the reps did offer many solutions to the health care issue. tort reform would be a good place to start

[SW329xl]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

As I said above, one of the first things I would do is require the government to meet the same standards private business has to meet. Things like no more off-budget, paying for one program with money from another, appropriation bills can't have non-budget or riders not pertaining to the appropriation. Heck, no one in Washington can tell you where all the money is or how it's being spent. That has to end.

We need either some form of flat tax, or a national sales tax (not both). Which ever, needs to be simple and clear. If we have a flat tax of say 10% above a certain poverty level, then that's what should be paid. No deductions, no loopholes on anything that produces income for an individual. Though that would be simpler than a sales tax, I think a sales tax is a more moral form of taxation.

Another thing I would do (and surprise, it involves the gubbmint) is after a certain date, anyone who starts paying SS taxes would have their money and the employer donation put into the government Thrift Savings Plan, as well as any contribution they wish to make. (I'm not going to try to explain the TSP here, you can check their website about it, but it spans almost no risk to high risk) That would be their SS.

These are only ideas, not fleshed out, detailed proposals, but, they are a start.

With all due respect PB, that would be like doing surgery to remove a cancerous tumor and leaving half of the tumor still in the patient. It will only be a matter of time before the patient is overwhelmed with cancer again.

The answer to what must be done is to immediately cut all social services. Stop welfare payments, stop medicaid, stop social security, stop medicare, stop all the madness. I am sure that some of you are going to say you paid into social security and medicare, so you are entitled to them. But wait, what was that word "entitlement". Social Security was a scam, and perpetuating it just keeps around the biggest entitlement. If you gave money to Bernie Maddoff, it is now gone. Did you need it to eat? Well boohoo to frickin bad, you should have made a better decision. Same goes for anybody who is relying on ANYTHING from the govt at all. If you are getting Social Security you are still part of the problem. The same obviously goes to anybody who is getting any kind of check from the government.

Next as far as taxation, first thing you need to do is look at your paycheck. If your signature is on the FRONT of the check, you are a producer. That means that your work is actually valuable and you contribute to society. Therefor it is a safe bet that you will make better use of your money than the govt, so you get to keep all of it. No taxes for business owners or investors at all. Call it regressive if you want, but it is PROVEN FACT that the wealthy are the ones that can best manage money and make decisions about it. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE WEALTHY. This all seems so obvious, I can not see why everyone does not get it. If your signature is not on the FRONT of your paycheck, you are existing because of the goodwill of others. Therefor you get to pay a moocher tax. The govt takes 20% of your pay since you do not have the intestinal fortitude to do something of value for the world, instead relying on others to provide you with a job and money. The tax money collected will be used for roads, rail systems, and military spending. Anything left over will be made available as 0% interest loans to the producers in order to help further boost economic growth.

Do this, and I can assure you that America will be the ultimate economic superpower. Do anything else and we are doomed to economic collapse. There is absolutely no middle ground here. You either kill the beast or you become enslaved to it. Pick your side now, and forever hold your peace.

[TropicCat]

Originally Posted by SW329xl

.......socialist traitors are still in power?

Socialist traitors?

Since George Bush was elected, family incomes in the USA have plummeted. The goal of those in power is to lower incomes to the point that we can compete globally under the mantra of "Free Trade".

Anyone with a calculator and a web browser (U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics) will discover that this requires eliminating America's middle class. By anyone's charts or graphs, this is what is in fact happening. There is no argument. Entire industries are being wiped out with nothing to replace them. Good, hard working people suddenly have been dumped into the 'bum' category when they woke up one morning and discovered their place of employment had closed.

So, if incomes plunge, the current system dictates that eventually, only the wealthy can afford health care. Look at increase of the numbers of uninsured today. It's indisputable.

To correct this trend, is what you call "socialist traitors"?

You're making the mistake of confusing conservative talk radio or Fox News with reality. They have one purpose, and that's to make money and increase ratings.

Mitch McConnell, is reality. This Republican Leader has refused to day the word 'repeal' in his speech after the passing of health care reform. Even Republican leaders understand that this reform will stand regardless of who controls the Senate come November. They will tweak it, but not repeal it. The rest is rhetoric for the mentally challenged, which you seem to one of it's leaders in this thread.

Incidentally.. Social Security is not an entitlement. I've paid into it for the last 44 years and haven't received a dime in return. When the time comes they will write me checks for what amounts to be my own money. I think you need a dictionary.

One of the cherished rights of America is that everyone is entitled to voice an opinion. One of the unfortunate results is that the uninformed can spout nonsense on a forum and pass it for 'facts'.

[PBzeer]

Entitlement isn't about whether you pay in or not.

[jackal41]

Originally Posted by bljones

Suffragism was supposed to destroy the country.
It didn't.
FDR's New Deal was supposed to destroy the country.
It didn't.
Communism was supposed to destroy the country.
It didn't.
Integration was supposed to destroy the country.
It didn't.
The 60's were supposed to destroy the country.
They didn't.
Rampant inflation in the 70s was supposed to destroy the country.
It didn't.
9/11 was supposed to destroy the country.
It didn't.

Look, I get it, it's debt, a growing, crushing, neverending burden of debt. A debt that looks insurmountable. A growing sense of entitlement, a steady decline of the middle class, the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer, and a widening chasm between the right and the left and vitriol on both sides that is getting increasingly ugly...

And you will overcome it and grow stronger.
Why?
Because you are AMERICA. You are the country that got caught by surprise at Pearl Harbor, and went on to win the war. The country that lifestyled the Soviet Union into oblivion. You are the only country in the world who has put a man on the moon!!!! You are the country that has always been bigger, brighter, shinier, and just plain better than any other country on the gawddamned planet.
That's why.
The only thing that can bring the US down is the US. When you stop believing your own mythology, when you stop believing that you live in the greatest country on the planet, then you are done.
And you know, something? you are halfway there.
As a country, you have lost your sense of humour, and your sense of perspective. you are less inclined to believe the truth, and more inclined to believe conspiracy theories. you are beginning to doubt yourself.
Here's a reality check:

yeah, unemployment is up- around 10%. That means 90% are working!
(Sure you can show me how smart and well informed you are by showing me that the stats only show those who are activley looking for work and doesn't show those who are working at lower paying jobs and those who... shut up. i don't care. Nobody has every succeeded by focusing on all the reasons to fail, and if you believe you are successful you will BE successful.)

My point is, negativity is easy. it is the default emotion and it is incredibly seductive. Negativity is a virus which is orally transmitted, and it is far more virulent than positivity. Criticism has been described as the intelligent expression of negativity. As intelligent as they are, critics, however, really really hate it when you ask them to put their self-expressed intelligence to work to come up with alternative solutions to the policies, or ideas or books, or films that they criticize.
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, criticize.
And criticism seems to be the new armchair sport in America, sort of like wii for old farts.

I hate to see how polarized a great country has become, how pathetic the rhetoric.

Come on guys, you're better than this. you are the greatest country in the world. Act like it.



I'm gonna go have a beer.

My feeling except I am going to have some bourbon !!!

[TropicCat]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

Entitlement isn't about whether you pay in or not.

LOL... how can you say this? You have guys in this thread saying that evidently I'm NOT entitled to receive my own money back at retirement. This makes it sound like that I'm at the public trough.

Not only are these comments insulting, if the ignorance demonstrated here is now in a position to effect national policy, this will be a national tragedy. It's obviously an indictment of our entire educational system as well.

Seriously, this is the best conservatives can do? It's alarming.