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11-20-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SailKing1
When and why did our government establish military tribunals?
Was 9/11 an act of war (aggression) against the USA?
If you correctly answer the first two questions, how can you support a civilian trail in the U.S. anywhere for these people?
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Easy ones.
Answer to number one; Previous admin had no plan for the peace and no plan to deal with these people. Caught with no plan they just hem/haw'd around and passed it off to the next guy. I mean, they had pleanty of time to take care of this, didn't they? Well didn't they? No you want to jump on the one guy who's actually doing something. Right or wrong he's had the guts to take action.
Answer to number two; it was an act of terrorism by a religous group, not a nation. It may have been planned and financed elseware but it took place (at least the ending) in NYC. The world doesn't give radical religous groups the diginity to commit war, they can only commit terrorism, so let's call it like it is and not manufactur something else from it.
Common criminal case? Mass murder of over 3000 people isn't really a common criminal case; this is a special case. But, is it so special that we need to change our values and our laws so we don't offend these people or their supporters? Are we fearfull of our own system?
I'm ready to get this chapter of American life over and done with and am glad to see we're making progress toward that goal.
DB
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11-20-2009
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Military tribunals have been in force since the Revolutionary War.
As to changing our values, just how does a military tribunal, with over 200 years of precedent change our values?
And why was it necessary to stop the tribunals that were already proceeding?
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
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11-20-2009
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What worries me is that these guys are entitled to a jury of their peers.
So, who's gonna find eighteen (12+ alternates?) suspected terrorists to make up a legal jury?
Or maybe "renditioned detainees" would be close enough to "peers" ?
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11-20-2009
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"And why was it necessary to stop the tribunals that were already proceeding?"
Because the supreme court said they were unconstitutional. Note they didnt say ALL military tribunals were unconstitutional, just the process the Bushies set up for the Guantanamo detainees.
In other words, they could have gotten it right but they screwed it up. I'm sure everyone hopes the Obamoids do a better job.
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11-20-2009
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I think they can get a fair hearing in either venue. I have a concern about "assisting the enemy" with all the discovery that takes place in a civilian trial. I haven't heard the supporters of a civilian trial address that issue yet.
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11-20-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erps
I think they can get a fair hearing in either venue. I have a concern about "assisting the enemy" with all the discovery that takes place in a civilian trial. I haven't heard the supporters of a civilian trial address that issue yet.
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You have a concern about "assisting the enemy" and are willing to compromise to that end? Have I got it right? Isn't that "them" (the tail) wagging the dog (us?)
It's the price we pay for the free and open society we enjoy. Are you willing to give up some of that freedom for a feeling of safety?
We should have been making a bee-line towards the people who attacked us on 911. It's hard to stomach the fact that we (the people who frequently refer to ourselves and the greatest and most powerful nation in the world) have been out smarted and out maneuvered by this gang of thugs. The fact they're still breathing is abhorrent to me and most Americans. Ya know, after I got over the shock of 911 I started thinking; "Man, the world's gonna see what happens when you do this kind of thing to US! We're gonna kick some ass now!" Still waiting.
I'm a 60's peace-nick radical ..... I hate war. But I don't hate justice. These people (and I mean all of 'em) need to answer for their actions. And I don't mean they need to answer to some invisable man in the sky, they need to answer to the world in the here-and-now.
DB
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11-20-2009
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the pointy end is the bow
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Quote:
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You have a concern about "assisting the enemy" and are willing to compromise to that end?
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They should get a fair hearing. Whether it's a military commission or a civilian trial, how is that a compromise?
Quote:
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It's the price we pay for the free and open society we enjoy. Are you willing to give up some of that freedom for a feeling of safety?
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Where did I suggest that?
Quote:
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But I don't hate justice. These people (and I mean all of 'em) need to answer for their actions. And I don't mean they need to answer to some invisable man in the sky, they need to answer to the world in the here-and-now.
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You seem to have your mind already made up as to their guilt or innocence. How much intelligence are you willing to feed the enemy with a civilian trial? How much risk are you willing to put additional American lives for your show trial? Is there an unacceptable level of risk for your search for justice? I'm saying it ought to be weighed. Is that unreasonable?
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Ray
S.V. Nikko
1983 Fraser 41
La Conner, WA
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11-20-2009
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Wandering Aimlessly
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No sck, it wasn't the court that stopped them, it was Obama.
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
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11-20-2009
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How are we upholding our values and belief in the system if, as Holder has already stated, that if the alleged conspirators are acquitted, they will not be allowed to go free? Minus a guilty verdict, how can they be detained?
The question is relevant because there are a host of procedural and technical reasons they could be acquitted. One's that only come in play in a civilian trial.
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John
Ontario 32 - Aria
Free, is the heart, that lives not, in fear.
Full, is the spirit, that thinks not, of falling.
True, is the soul, that hesitates not, to give.
Alive, is the one, that believes, in love. JCP
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11-21-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PBzeer
How are we upholding our values and belief in the system if, as Holder has already stated, that if the alleged conspirators are acquitted, they will not be allowed to go free? Minus a guilty verdict, how can they be detained?
The question is relevant because there are a host of procedural and technical reasons they could be acquitted. One's that only come in play in a civilian trial.
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Try 'em one case at a time, yes that would mean over 3000 trials. That's one way.
Given the accuracy reccord of the people who threw these people in the klink in the first place ........... ya think there may be one or two innocent people down there?
What's really disturbing is that, as a country, we've already compromised our long standing and honorable ideals. The real fear is once we, and the rest of the world, learns about just how much torture has been going on some of these guys may walk. Who's fault is that? Ours of theirs?
DB
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