You don't have to be a tree hugger to appreciate this amazing film

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by knothead

Dying Honeybees: It Was the Insecticides All Along

Now, in a true free market, Bayer would take responsibility and attempt to make this right without being forced to right?
We'll see.

Of course - that is the wonderful part of Capitalism - it's pure self correcting process.

I wonder how Bayer's profits are these days?

[knothead]

Originally Posted by Daveinet

So you agree with the Republicans that want to get rid of the EPA?

I agree with Ron Paul who wants to get rid of the EPA. I have come to agree that we as individuals would be more effective at forcing business to be responsible.
If corporations are the same as individuals, they need to grow a conscience just like an individual. They need to put making money in it's proper perspective. Greed cannot continue to be more important than responsible stewardship. Like RP says, you can't pollute someone else's property. If you do, you get sued. In a case like Bayer, with the consequences so huge, (The loss of bees could be devastating for the human race), their civil penalty should be huge too. Huge enough to scare them and their stock holders straight.

Originally Posted by SloopJonB

Of course - that is the wonderful part of Capitalism - it's pure self correcting process.

I wonder how Bayer's profits are these days?

I believe it could be. With informed consumers, powerful people with money and a few good lawyers. These companies could be held accountable for their products and behavior.

The EPA shouldn't be simply be disbanded. It's done lots of good work, amassed lots of good research and it should be continued perhaps under a different name and under private control.
How about something like Environmental Protection Cooperative?
Surely, there are enough people who care enough about the environment and who are skilled enough to run the agency like a not for profit business.
I would give to a cause like that.

[BentSailor]

As you mention, knotty, corporations need to grow a conscience. Thing is, they cannot. They are simply a legal construct to serve as a shield against the full consequences of their actions. Their whole purpose is to limit the liability and accountability of the decision makers.

If you want accountability in terms of the individuals - have the individuals exposed to the consequences of their actions. Corporations are a flying leap in the other direction.

It is for this reason I have no faith in the market and corporations correcting themselves, regardless of how many rights you give them. The most responsible businesses I see are those where the decision maker and primary owner are one and the same. And even then, you get CEO's justifying that profit trumps what is best for their own country (jobs being shipped overseas the major example of this).

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by knothead

I believe it could be. With informed consumers, powerful people with money and a few good lawyers. These companies could be held accountable for their products and behavior.

But then you'd be in a perfect world and they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Until then........

[knothead]

Originally Posted by SloopJonB

But then you'd be in a perfect world and they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

Until then........

Perfect worlds don't just happen by accident. We have to keep working toward it. But not by continuing to do the same things that have brought us to this point.
There are no easy answers, but we can't just sit back and wait for this perfect world to just magically come about. It won't happen by itself. It won't happen if we leave it to an impersonal government.
It will only happen when we as individuals change ourselves and lead others by example. In our personal lives, our business lives and our community lives.
We're running out of time and it's too late to be a pessimist.

[therapy23]

Originally Posted by BentSailor

As you mention, knotty, corporations need to grow a conscience. Thing is, they cannot. They are simply a legal construct to serve as a shield against the full consequences of their actions. Their whole purpose is to limit the liability and accountability of the decision makers.

If you want accountability in terms of the individuals - have the individuals exposed to the consequences of their actions. Corporations are a flying leap in the other direction.

It is for this reason I have no faith in the market and corporations correcting themselves, regardless of how many rights you give them. The most responsible businesses I see are those where the decision maker and primary owner are one and the same. And even then, you get CEO's justifying that profit trumps what is best for their own country (jobs being shipped overseas the major example of this).

Yep.

Take away the shield so the individuals themselves are held responsible.

[BentSailor]

Originally Posted by knothead

Perfect worlds don't just happen by accident. We have to keep working toward it. But not by continuing to do the same things that have brought us to this point.
There are no easy answers, but we can't just sit back and wait for this perfect world to just magically come about. It won't happen by itself. It won't happen if we leave it to an impersonal government.
It will only happen when we as individuals change ourselves and lead others by example. In our personal lives, our business lives and our community lives.
We're running out of time and it's too late to be a pessimist.

That's a great speech that'd work well in a political stump. Alot of your posts actually are. Thing is, there are no concrete solutions in what you said. Leading by example only works for those that want to be led where you're going. Pessimism is understandable when the people actually seeking a solution think that everyone is going to jump on the Kumbaya Wagon of Goodwill & Honest Dealing.

I admire your desires, knotty, I really do. It's just that you seem to see the world through rose-tinted lenses. Most people aren't assholes... but a significantly large proportion are. Sadly, they are the ones that rise to the top of the business food-chain because, let's face it, assholes can make the decisions that make corporations money without feeling bad about how they do it.

Originally Posted by therapy23

Yep.

Take away the shield so the individuals themselves are held responsible.

I'd love to. Thing is, you would need to reverse centuries of law & precedent to do so... against the will of some VERY powerful vested interests. It's never going to happen. I agree it should, but I live in the real world so I won't be wasting energy pining for the impossible.

[knothead]

Originally Posted by BentSailor

That's a great speech that'd work well in a political stump. Alot of your posts actually are. Thing is, there are no concrete solutions in what you said. Leading by example only works for those that want to be led where you're going. Pessimism is understandable when the people actually seeking a solution think that everyone is going to jump on the Kumbaya Wagon of Goodwill & Honest Dealing.

I admire your desires, knotty, I really do. It's just that you seem to see the world through rose-tinted lenses. Most people aren't assholes... but a significantly large proportion are. Sadly, they are the ones that rise to the top of the business food-chain because, let's face it, assholes can make the decisions that make corporations money without feeling bad about how they do it.



I'd love to. Thing is, you would need to reverse centuries of law & precedent to do so... against the will of some VERY powerful vested interests. It's never going to happen. I agree it should, but I live in the real world so I won't be wasting energy pining for the impossible.

I will admit that your philosophy is winning the day.

"Psychological research shows that group expectations are the strongest predictor of the future. A self-fulfilling prophecy explains how negative thoughts create reality"

Self-Fulfilling Prophecies in Psychology: How Negative Thoughts and Expectations Create Problems in Life | Suite101.com



Bent, please don't feel that I'm being insulting toward you. I don't mean it that way. It's just that I'm so saddened by this attitude. As you probably can imagine, I get it all the time. It's difficult for me to not succumb to my own cynicism and pessimism.

[BentSailor]

Originally Posted by knothead

I will admit that your philosophy is winning the day.

Your little comic, whilst amusing, suggests it is fear of the unknown that is preventing change. At least in my case, it is fear of the known that prevents me from adopting some of your views.

I know that people are @ssholes. I know that, the higher one gets in the corporate food-chain, the higher the percentage of @ssholes there are around you (personal experience). I've had enough experience with @ssholes to know that "informed consumers, powerful people with money and a few good lawyers" are not going to be enough to change their behaviour.

"Psychological research shows that group expectations are the strongest predictor of the future. A self-fulfilling prophecy explains how negative thoughts create reality"

Bent, please don't feel that I'm being insulting toward you. I don't mean it that way. It's just that I'm so saddened by this attitude. As you probably can imagine, I get it all the time. It's difficult for me to not succumb to my own cynicism and pessimism.

I'm not taking it as an insult. If I thought you were trying, I'd retort to the effect of you beating me with a limp lettuce leaf. I give as good as I get and I return in kind. I see you as honestly believing what you say and at least trying not to distort what I do. Least I can do is reflect that

With that said, I am cynical by nature. I've been told I was a miserable old man at the age of four and I know I haven't improved .

With that to one side, I don't think people are saying we should give up and do nothing. They are, however, pointing out that the path you seem to be outlining assumes the world is a much better place than it is. In the world the rest of us see, too many people will try to abuse the trust your system requires to make it workable.