Can a good Muslim be a good American?

[knothead]

Originally Posted by JimMcGee

Knothead you raise a good point. I tend to look first at the new posts and I've been seeing a lot of posts from Mike that, like this one, seem full of anger and mis-information. That just feels completely at odds with why I sail and why I come to sailnet -- and honestly I edited my post. My first reaction was a bit stronger.

That said I can draw a line from environmental concerns to sailing. I can even see some political issues like dredging, use taxes on boats and enforcement issues. I have a tough time seeing the connection from bigoted hate speech to sailing. YMMV.



Amen. More blood has been spilt in the name of God than for any other reason. That's the real danger, as the rhetoric amps up there are nut jobs on both sides who are all to willing to take things too far.



We've talked seriously about starting the Church of $hit Happens. The whole philosophy of the church is when life turns to $hit, you just say "$hit happens" and have another beer. That's pretty much the whole theology, the main tenant of the religion being you are required to keep beer in the fridge.
I've evidently been a member of your denomination for years.

Jim

Jim, I understand where you are coming from. My point is simply that I think it's unreasonable to expect that every thread on SailNet will conform to one particular person's expectations.
Why should we expect every thread that we encounter on a forum devoted to sailors to be something that all sailors agree with or something that we are even interested in?
By the same token, what gives anyone the idea that there won't be threads on a sailors forum that other sailors find disturbing, unpleasant or just plain boring?
We buy newspapers hoping that they will provide the widest range of information possible. We don't expect that every Op Ed piece will mesh with our own ideas. Or that every story will lean our way. Kinda defeats the purpose.
There is one guy that writes a regular column in my paper. I haven't read a word that he's written in over five years. He's on my mental ignore list. But I'm not going to stop reading the paper simply because he writes for them.

I have never understood why there is this constant gripe about off topic content on "a sailing site". (I'm not suggesting that you are griping)
There are many sailing sites that have discouraged free expression in an attempt to keep it "pure". Most of them are a very good source for sailing information no doubt. But when I'm on some of those sites, I feel like I'm in church and don't really feel like I can be myself. SailNet has always been a place where, within the bounds of decency and a certain degree of civility, one can express themselves honestly. That's a good thing.

On sailnet, one can even hijack a thread once in awhile without being totally castigated.

[MIKEMCKEE]

Originally Posted by JimMcGee

Mike, why do you feel the need to post this stuff on a sailing web site when there are so many political sites on the Web?

Well I guess I put things here is because it's called "Politics/Religion/War/Government" and I don't have to go any place else to enjoy SBS's coments to me, I do put other items on this site, go to the jokes section under Off Topic and take a look.

[therapy23]

I get all my political updates here.

Wide range of topics.

Lots of opinions.

Good links.

[RAGNAR]

As long as this good Muslim can set aside the horrible text and traditions of his religion to the same extent that the average good Christian already has, then, yes, he can be a great American. (I know armies of people like this. Many are more American than Americans that have been here for generations -- especially those who came here armed with a classical education.)

The problem is that Islam has yet to go through a Renaissance and/or Enlightenment.

How do you bring that about,though?

(Look at the differences between European nations that went through this and European nations that haven't. It's an alarming observation.)

[mdbee]

Very true Ragnar.

There are plenty of Christians that are hard core "Old Testament" fire & brimstone advocates but they are in the vast minority and rarely are they calling for violence against others.

Whereas the radicals of the Muslim faith seem to be in the majority. At least they get all the publicity. I would like to think the radical, violent Muslims are a minority but you rarely hear any criticism of the violence from other Muslims. They appear to be afraid of the radicals or they agree with them. They need to speak up, if we are to find a common ground and respect for each other.

It's true, the Christians also went through a similar transformation, I hope Muslims realize the need for humanity if we are to live in peace one day.
Unfortunately I don't see any evidence of a coming Muslim Renaissance.

Originally Posted by RAGNAR

As long as this good Muslim can set aside the horrible text and traditions of his religion to the same extent that the average good Christian already has, then, yes, he can be a great American. (I know armies of people like this. Many are more American than Americans that have been here for generations -- especially those who came here armed with a classical education from abroad.)

The problem is that Islam has yet to go through a Renaissance and/or Enlightenment.

How do you bring that about,though?

(Look at the differences between European nations that went through this and European nations that haven't. It's an alarming observation.)

[bljones]

Originally Posted by RAGNAR

As long as this good Muslim can set aside the horrible text and traditions of his religion to the same extent that the average good Christian already has, then, yes, he can be a great American. (I know armies of people like this. Many are more American than Americans that have been here for generations -- especially those who came here armed with a classical education from abroad.)

The problem is that Islam has yet to go through a Renaissance and/or Enlightenment.

How do you bring that about,though?

(Look at the differences between European nations that went through this and European nations that haven't. It's an alarming observation.)

Ah, so you, as a conservative, are calling for the liberalization of a classically conservative culture?

[RAGNAR]

Originally Posted by bljones

Ah, so you, as a conservative, are calling for the liberalization of a classically conservative culture?

I'm not a Conservative.

What we today call "liberal" has nothing to do with the original, valid definition of the word. I would, however, say that it would be nice to see Islam liberalized in the classic sense -- ditto for today's Left.

And Islam doesn't fit what we today refer to as "conservative".

That's an impressive series of stretches, bl. Good thing I don't bother worrying much about motive. Somthing like this could kill the weekend and yield nothing definitive.

[RAGNAR]

Originally Posted by mdbee

Whereas the radicals of the Muslim faith seem to be in the majority. At least they get all the publicity.

The distinction I put in bold is crucial.

I would like to think the radical, violent Muslims are a minority but you rarely hear any criticism of the violence from other Muslims.

This is anecdotal, but I can tell you that I hear it in whispers. There's a ton of subcultural pressure and an implicit threat hovering over people that would speak out. That's why I have such a crush on Wafa Sultan (Search this site for footage of her or, better yet, consider her book: A God Who Hates: The Courageous Woman Who Inflamed the Muslim World Speaks Out Against the Evils of Radical Islam My guess is that the publishers "snuck" in "Radical".)

They appear to be afraid of the radicals or they agree with them. They need to speak up, if we are to find a common ground and respect for each other

They're in a tough, tough situation. I was hopping that the GZ mosque issue would give them an indirect approach to taking a stance for an Islam that sheds its history ( a liberal Islam.)

It's true, the Christians also went through a similar transformation, I hope Muslims realize the need for humanity if we are to live in peace one day.
Unfortunately I don't see any evidence of a coming Muslim Renaissance.

I didn't see an Obama rising this early but He came. You never know what's brewing out there. Let's hope the better element prevails (numbers have nothing to do with it, BTW. Traditionally, a culture is determined by a relatively small % of the population.)

[bljones]

Originally Posted by RAGNAR

And Islam doesn't fit what we today refer to as "conservative".

I dunno- let's compare window stickers-

Islam: slow to change, spiritually rigid, pro-family, pro-death penalty.
GOP: slow to change, spiritually rigid, pro-family, pro-death penalty.

[RAGNAR]

Here's an interesting little fact:

I mistakingly linked to amazon.co.uk in the above post. Look at the link for amazon.com:

A God Who Hates: The Courageous Woman Who Inflamed the Muslim World Speaks Out Against the Evils of Islam

The "Radical" which we saw in the UK edition's subtitle isn't in the US edition.

Hmmmmm . . .