What is it about taxes?

[PBzeer]

For any system of government to function, it has to have a source of revenue to fund it's operation. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. The problem, for many people, is not just the use made of the revenue, but the amount needed, and the manner in which it is collected.

Most countries employ some form of direct taxation on it's citizens to fund the government. Many have multiple forms of direct taxes. Be it income, dedicated taxes, value-added/sales tax, property taxes, or a tax on specific commodities/services. Most often it is a combination of all of these, which in turn are usually supplemented by various and sundry fees, license requirements, and other regulatory compliance issues, as well as corporate taxes (which are usually passed on to the consumer). The amount of tax is most often a function of the level of government provided, though not necessarily.

In a word, taxes are inescapable. As are the effects of them on individual finances and the general economy. So, the general question is: Should the size and scope of government be dictated by available revenue (a stable tax environment), or by what revenue is necessary to maintain the desired size and scope (a flexible or fluid tax environment)? This excludes any extraordinary expenses, such as disasters, wars, or such. What I'm referring to are the day to day, mandated expenses, be they legislated or of a practical nature.

The genesis of this post came from picking up somethings this morning where I was paying taxes on taxes (commodity A is taxed, and then you pay sales tax on the price including the commodity tax). I was also thinking of how politicians promise benefits, be they to individuals, groups, or businesses, but don't fully fund them. And lastly, how taxes are used not merely for revenue generation, but to elicit certain behaviors or accomplish certain dubious results that some find appealing.

That's my beef with taxes. I don't advocate paying no taxes, but, I do believe that much of the taxes that are collected are spent on things beyond the need of necessity.

[IronSpinnaker]

Some would argue that taxation is not necessary on a federal level because the feds print the money and our dollar is not tied to anything of value i.e gold or silver. So the Fed determines how much money to print, prints and distributes it. It cannot distribute it by releasing it into the economy for nothing, so it runs a dept and uses newly printed money to pay said dept. There by putting new money into the economy without just dumping it off of the top of a building for people to pick up.

State and local government cannot print money, so they need various forms of taxation.

I think with electronic toll collection we could solve our tax short fall by putting tolls on the federal highway system. NYC collects over 2 billion a year in tolls just for its bridges and tunnels.... Imagine how much revenue could be generated on a nation wide scale.

[WouldaShoulda]

In Maryland, we don't believe in raising a toll by .50, It's at least a 150% or nothing around here!!

[Ilenart]

I think tax are a necessary evil, however recently I've been reading lots of details about Greece and one thing that strikes me is the number of times it is mentioned that through corruption or whatever lots of professionals and well off pay little or no taxes. You can only do this for so long and now the country is effectively bankrupt and everyone is suffering.

I'm now reading lots of debate over increasing the US debt ceiling and again it appears a major sticking point is the level of taxation in the US. Yes there is also lots of debate over whether money is being wasted, however the simple fact is the US govt for years has been spending more than has been coming in, which is effectively what has been happening in Greece.

The other thing I saw was this US "debt" clock, which I think was up around US14 trillion. That was a lot of zero's, I don't think my calculator could show that many numbers .

Not sure what the solution is, however I think something needs to change. I would hate to see the US heading down the same route as Greece.

Ilenart

[Tempest]

Originally Posted by Ilenart

Not sure what the solution is, however I think something needs to change. I would hate to see the US heading down the same route as Greece.

Ilenart

I think we're already there. The emperor has no clothes! But no one wants to say it outloud. The Treasury Secretary, who I thought should have never been confirmed..(after failing to report his tax return properly.) is looking to get out of dodge!

Politicians are out of control, they haven't met a fund that they couldn't deplete to the point of insolvency. In order to keep their "jobs" they purchase votes by creating unsustainable entitlements. Term Limits would be a good first step in my mind. I don't think the founders of this country ever anticipated " career politicians". You left your career for a time to give "service"..and then returned to a productive life. Today's paradign is, get into politics, appease the special interests, then IF you leave..go to work as a lobbyist, or work for one of the special interests you pandered while in office. Personally, I think we can pay them all to stay home...we have enough laws..and more than enough taxes. In the alternative, take away the piggy bank, and make them provide proper oversight for the money we already send.

[wingNwing]

I wish the conversation would be "what things/services should the nation fund" and then set the taxes to match that. I think that's PBzeer's scenario #2 ... but we haven't had the conversation about what is appropriate to fund. National defense? Okay (how much and what kind?). But about so many social programs, I think you have to decide which kind of error you're more willing to make - because surely you'll make some. So, are you more worried about some deserving people falling through the cracks? Or are you more worried about some folks scamming the system and taking advantage? The first leads to broad loose requirements and some waste; the second to lots of bureaucratic hoops and some hard luck stories.

[PBzeer]

Over the past few days, something that had been but a vague notion, hovering around the edge of conscious thought, has become clearer. It may, or may not, be true or accurate, but it is something that arises from conversations over the past years that always seems to be unspoken, yet still said. And the more I think about it, the surer I am of it.

I think everyday Americans, the ones who go to work, pay their taxes, help their neighbors, are fed up with being told what to do. Not about "big" things, but the little things. Whether it's install this type of toilet, or use this kind of lightbulb. Get a permit for this, or a license for that, they feel government is ordering them around.

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly commonsense rules and regulations that government should enact, but there are many, and the list keeps growing, of those that are not grounded in commonsense or useful purpose. And, to do this, they see government growing ever larger and wanting ever larger amounts of their money.

I'm not talking about one specific thing or another, but the accumulation, over the years, that I think reached it's tipping point with the passage of Obamacare, and it's individual mandate in particular.

Again though, it's not just one thing. It's schools that demand more tax dollars, while failing to properly educate. It's regulators that fail to regulate when they should, yet are eager to do so for political advantage. It's a tax code so convoluted most people can't complete their tax form themselves. And the list goes on and on. Little things, that by themselves are bearable, but when taken as a whole, become not just oppressive, but disheartening.

I think the real division in America isn't of wealth or race, but of those who believe in individual rights and those that believe in government. Or to put it another way, those who are fed up with being ordered to do that or do this, and those who are okay with it.

[mdbee]

Maybe a good place to look would be the Constitution. Most of what Congress interferes in isn't actually in their power, at least according to the Constitution.

Originally Posted by wingNwing

I wish the conversation would be "what things/services should the nation fund" and then set the taxes to match that. I think that's PBzeer's scenario #2 ... but we haven't had the conversation about what is appropriate to fund. National defense? Okay (how much and what kind?). But about so many social programs, I think you have to decide which kind of error you're more willing to make - because surely you'll make some. So, are you more worried about some deserving people falling through the cracks? Or are you more worried about some folks scamming the system and taking advantage? The first leads to broad loose requirements and some waste; the second to lots of bureaucratic hoops and some hard luck stories.

[mdbee]

People are fed up with the way the government works (or doesn't)

You grow tired of the wasteful use of tax money. The politicians spread favors based on political donations and votes, not the sensible use of our taxes.

Originally Posted by PBzeer

Over the past few days, something that had been but a vague notion, hovering around the edge of conscious thought, has become clearer. It may, or may not, be true or accurate, but it is something that arises from conversations over the past years that always seems to be unspoken, yet still said. And the more I think about it, the surer I am of it.

I think everyday Americans, the ones who go to work, pay their taxes, help their neighbors, are fed up with being told what to do. Not about "big" things, but the little things. Whether it's install this type of toilet, or use this kind of lightbulb. Get a permit for this, or a license for that, they feel government is ordering them around.

Don't get me wrong, there are certainly commonsense rules and regulations that government should enact, but there are many, and the list keeps growing, of those that are not grounded in commonsense or useful purpose. And, to do this, they see government growing ever larger and wanting ever larger amounts of their money.

I'm not talking about one specific thing or another, but the accumulation, over the years, that I think reached it's tipping point with the passage of Obamacare, and it's individual mandate in particular.

Again though, it's not just one thing. It's schools that demand more tax dollars, while failing to properly educate. It's regulators that fail to regulate when they should, yet are eager to do so for political advantage. It's a tax code so convoluted most people can't complete their tax form themselves. And the list goes on and on. Little things, that by themselves are bearable, but when taken as a whole, become not just oppressive, but disheartening.

I think the real division in America isn't of wealth or race, but of those who believe in individual rights and those that believe in government. Or to put it another way, those who are fed up with being ordered to do that or do this, and those who are okay with it.