Anti-Morman bias

[PBzeer]

According to Gallup, 18% of Republicans wouldn't vote for a Morman. For Independents, it's 19%. And for those bastions of tolerance, the Democrats, it's 27%.

As I said in another thread, it's not really the GOP that Romney or Huntsman have to worry about, it's the Dems.

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

According to Gallup, 18% of Republicans wouldn't vote for a Morman. For Independents, it's 19%. And for those bastions of tolerance, the Democrats, it's 27%.

As I said in another thread, it's not really the GOP that Romney or Huntsman have to worry about, it's the Dems.

While I don't invite the door to door evangelists in, I have some Mormons in my family on my wifes' side. My experience of them is they make great neighbours but obviously not party guests.

My one big concern with that church is that, as far as I am aware, it is strictly white. I have never seen a black, Asian, aboriginal or anything other than white Mormon.

Is this a correct observation or can anyone shed more light on it?

[BentSailor]

Gotta head out - two quick points which I'll elaborate on later.

First one, never said that Romney would only have to worry about the GOP, just said there was a significant portion that never would. Around 1 in 5 is pretty damned significant.

Second one, the Mormon beliefs have racist overtones which still exist to this day. Until threatened by the IRS with losing their tax-free status, they openly discriminated against black people claiming they are marked with Cain's curse (the black skin) and that they were unworthy of the priesthood (which every other male in the church got so long as they aren't proven to be flaunting the Church's laws). They are more open today since the timely revelation from God (), especially outside the heartlands of the Church in Utah. For example, here in Australia, we have complete congregations of Somoans, Tongans, etc (and boy can they sing!!!).

[RobGallagher]

Saying you are Mormon is saying you are NOT pro-choice. I am sure he consider's it his duty to repeal Roe V. Wade and take the next step to make abortion a crime (as apposed to letting each state decide).

There are Republicans, Independents, and, of course Democrats that are very afraid of taking away a woman's right to choose.

I am in Independent who is thinks it's up to each individual Woman to decide what happens to her body so I guess it's safe to say that I would not vote for a Mormon.

That doesn't make them bad people. I just disagree with them on some fundamental issues. Such as, I feel religion should be kept out of government.

Now if he came out and said he was pro-choice... then the GOP and the Mormons would drop him like a hot potato...

[BentSailor]

OK, had a wonderful day out with the family (spending way too much money, but the kids and wife deserved a treat to start the school holidays). Anyhow, I said I'd elaborate on my points later and thought I'd do so before I forgot or others decide I mean something I do not.

On anti-Mormon bias and Romney
My position is, and always has been, that Romney is probably the best Republican candidate to take on Obama - provided he could actually get the primary nod of confirmation. In most states, the opinions of the opposing side don't mean much in the way of who gets the primary nod. And, let's face it, the percentage of Democrats voting for a Republican President is going to be minimal.

With that in mind, Romney's biggest hurdle is going to be convincing Republicans that he should represent them. Democrats already have a representative. With a variety of other Republican nominees up to vote for, knowing that there is around 1 in 5 of the base voters who won't vote for you no matter how good your economic, foreign policy, and domestic qualifications might be is going to hurt. Not only that, but people looking into electability are going to factor that in (1-in-5 base voters won't turn up for the real presidential poll), ignoring everything else Romney might have going against him.

On Mormons & Racism
A fundamental belief (if one not often talked about) is the fact that the Latter Day Saints believe that black skin is the mark of Cain as passed down from those cursed with it (American Indians are apparently Jews who got cursed with dark sking by YHWH 600-400 years before Christ).

Among alot of other interesting things this implies, this meant that black people could not enter the Mormon priesthood. For those unfamiliar with the Mormon faith, all males in the church get inducted into the priesthood from an early age. It is not something that sets them aside from the rest of the Mormon faith like the priesthood in other Christian sects, but something that sets them aside from all other people (Christian or otherwise). So banning a negro from getting what every other male got by dint basically of just being in the Church was not a minor thing. Technically, I am a member of the Aaronic Priesthood and I never believed, just said the right words at the right time as any other sixteen year old would with parental pressure.

The internal view was not as conflicted as other sects either. You have to remember their prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith, had stated outright "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race" (emphasis mine). People who questioned publicly whether the policy/doctrine on black people and the priesthood should be looked into were excommunicated (as are those today that show through DNA evidence that the Native Americans are not of Jewish descent).

This all changed in 1978 when the church apparently received revelation from God that black people would now enjoy the same benefits as white people in the Church (including being able to receive the priesthood previously denied them). Whilst this conflicted with previous doctrine (earlier prophets of the Church had basically outruled this until the end of days), it did officially end the dogmatic discrimination so long as being called the Seed of Cain due to your skin colour doesn't bother you.

The timing is interesting because it later came out that Rex Lee, US Solicitor General & a Mormon, had to recuse himself from the 1981 Bob Jones University case where the IRS sought (successfully) to remove their tax-exempt status due to their policies on excluding black people. His reason for recusal was that, in representing the Mormon church in a similar case, he had argued that the church should retain its tax-exempt status despite its racist policies and felt conflicted from arguing an opposing view in the Bob Jones case.

It should be known & made quite clear that black people have been members of tne Church for quite a long time before the revelation, they simply were denied the full benefits (as they saw it) due to the colour of their skin. Today, the Mormon Church has spread to a wide variety of regions and has many a chapel where black people are the majority if not totality of the congregation. And, like every other large religion, the racist beliefs at the top of the Mormon hierarchy is not and was not representative of all the Mormons. Prior to the revelation, if you kept quiet, you could disagree with the doctrine all you liked. It was only if you made the disagreement public that they got rid of you. Today, being official and a large chunk of the membership not having lived through the Civil Rights movement, it is just another dirty secret swept under the rug and hand-waved away when encountering scripture referring to it.

[PBzeer]

If one thinks a serial flip-flopper is a good candidate, then I guess Romney, with his better name recognition and organization, would be a good candidate. Whether he would be the best candidate is a question not yet answered. He would be my choice for the GOP candidate if I was a Democrat though.

For myself, his, or Huntsman Mormanism is not a problem. Their quasi-conservatism is though. I don't believe either one is committed enough to cutting spending (which is more than just cutting off dollars, it's getting rid of things we don't need that we really need to do). Basically, I don't think either one is tough enough to make the hard choices that need to be made. And I think that time will show that is their biggest hurdle to surmount, not their religion. In so far as being nominated goes.

[BentSailor]

Originally Posted by PBzeer

And I think that time will show that is their biggest hurdle to surmount, not their religion. In so far as being nominated goes.

And I think otherwise. With one on five people unwilling to vote for them regardless of their platform, I reckon the numbers agree with me. Of course, you can feel free to disregard the statistics you brought up... after all, we expect consistency

[PBzeer]

If one in five won't, that leaves four in five that will. I reckon the primaries will show more than 18% of that 82% will oppose their nomination. The poll numbers already show that, and religion hasn't even been part of the conversation. His albatross is RomneyCare, not religion, because RomneyCare has the same basic problem ObamaCare has, telling people they HAVE to do something. "Don't tread on me" is more than just a slogan, and that's what neither Romney nor Obama understand. And if Romney doesn't figure it out, he can forget about the nomination.

It's not just the mandate, it's lightbulbs and toilets. Helmets and seatbelts. Lemonade stands and yard sales. An ever growing list of, do this, don't do that, coming out of all levels of government. When people talk about taking back MY America, that's what they're talking about. And if one of the candidates figures that out, and finds a way to express it, with conviction, they will be the next President.

[RAGNAR]

I'd like to know exactly how these stats were drawn, as it's very easy to survey one way and present findings in a way that reflects a very different survey approach.

(This is pure hunch on my part, but I have a hard time believing these numbers are as high as the survey suggests.)

[PBzeer]

I posted them merely for the range, not how accurate they were intrinsically. Had they not been from Gallup (though I don't really think they are any better than anyone else at polling), I wouldn't even have posted.