Thank you Oath keepers for loving your God, Country, and Families. Thank you for your fight for Honor. I love you!http://
This whole thing sounds suspiciously akin to what I hear from survivalists, minutemen, self appointed border guards, the Timothy McVeigh's and their ilk. Requiring Loyalty Oaths is downright UN-American, as was demonstrated so clearly during the McCarthy years.
Any real American does not need this nonsense to be patriotic and to defend their country and way of life. This has been proven so many times it doesn't bear scrutiny. To anyone else, such an oath is meaningless.
All this "Oath" nonsense is is showboating - "I'm a better and truer and more aware American than you (or, especially, THEM)".
Either you are a true patriotic American or you aren't and no oath will change that.
In many ways I think that I, a citizen of another country, am a better "American" than many of the people who spout this stuff. I have a lot more faith in the patriotism, sense of justice and general common sense of the American people than they seem to.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats". The Water Rat from The Wind In The Willows
Sailing for 40 years in the Pacific, Atlantic, Caribbean but mostly Georgia Straight.
Currently own a Columbia 43.
Nonsense that they swore to uphold the Constitution? Interesting twist. Also interesting that you comment on something that is specific to the U.S. and and oath that is specific to the U.S., with "authority". Without being born here and living here, you could not have a concept of the flavor of what this means.
Might be more prudent for you to keep your comments polite regarding someone else's beliefs and country, as opposed to being so confrontational.
I could not see being rude enough to comment on Canada and what it means to be Canadian, nor to comment on whether or not you are being patriotic towards your country in a proper manner. That would be up to you to decide.
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1969 Crealock/Columbia 36 Sloop completely refitted in 2000 and new Yanmar in 2006.
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Nonsense that they swore to uphold the Constitution? Interesting twist. Also interesting that you comment on something that is specific to the U.S. and and oath that is specific to the U.S., with "authority". Without being born here and living here, you could not have a concept of the flavor of what this means.
It's not nonsense, as I said, it is meaningless - either you are a patriot or you aren't - public displays like repeatedly and publicly swearing one don't change anything
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Originally Posted by tomperanteau
Might be more prudent for you to keep your comments polite regarding someone else's beliefs and country, as opposed to being so confrontational.
Sorry, being confrontational about things like this is one of my bigger faults - don't mean to be rude but my blood gets up pretty quick when I see anything that hints of McCarthyism or "I'm purer than you" pseudo-patriotism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomperanteau
I could not see being rude enough to comment on Canada and what it means to be Canadian, nor to comment on whether or not you are being patriotic towards your country in a proper manner. That would be up to you to decide.
If we start having people demanding loyalty oaths to prove they are "real" Canadians, I hope you WILL speak up about it. This sort of thing looks so boy scout pure and unassailable on the face of it but it is the first big step towards jingoism and fascism. Having to have a public face on your love of country to be considered a "real" patriot is not a positive thing - it's like any sort of love - the quiet kind is the real thing, the noisy kind is done for others to see. Remember the Viet Nam times and the "My country, right or wrong" slogan - same thing. The people who shouted that the loudest were the ones who were wrong about the whole situation.
Where does this oath thing go - mandating everyone fly the flag from their home? Demanding the oath be spoken before school or any other public function?
I stand by my original comments - either you are a patriot in which case no oath is required or you aren't in which case it is meaningless.
Requiring it of new citizens as part of their ceremony is a completely different thing than making a showboat ritual of it.
This is all IMHO - not meant to offend, just elaborate.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats". The Water Rat from The Wind In The Willows
Sailing for 40 years in the Pacific, Atlantic, Caribbean but mostly Georgia Straight.
Currently own a Columbia 43.
I watched the whole thing, as usual, and I found it to be rather educational. I am glad that there are oathkeepers.
I feel like, since they have been kicking in doors for a seed or less for over 40 years, making millions of plastic coffins big enough for 3 people, cutting and medicating our water supply on purpose, who knows what's in our food, deliberately concealing good medicine while profiteering off of our children, regulating commerce right out of the country.... need I say more??
Yes I am glad for oathkeepers! There are those who take the oath for a job, then there are those who have the ability to still reason. Life is precious, they have educated the life right out of many people. It's my experience.
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ISO, Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, actively pursuing God, and to free the non violent prisoners of WOD.
I understood it, SJB, though calling yourself a better "American" was probably what triggered the response. I know if you claimed to be a better "Australian", my patriotic nerve would get a jolt too
The way I see it, if you are making a loyalty oath in public (or referring to having made it), it is purely for someone else's benefit. Whether it is for the benefit of the country you are becoming a citizen of or for the benefit of the people you are trying to impress your views upon - the oath is (as SJB pointed out) irrelevant to whether or not you are a patriot. No-one knows if you are lying through your teeth on it and history is replete with examples of public patriotism being used to segregate people based on something other than their love for country.
Whilst the oath-keepers might really love their country, not swearing their oath has no bearing on whether one does or doesn't love the US. The oath-keepers could just as easily defend the Constitution from what they see as threats to it without the oath. The oath (and the name of their organisation) is for influencing others to support them and/or their principles. Not everyone that loves America is going to agree with them just as not everyone that loves Australia agrees with the Australia Party (I looked for a group that swore loyalty oaths here for comparison but we're tapped out at the moment).
I don't doubt that many, if not most or all of them, like Jerry for example, are true patriots - it's the need for a public display of that patriotism that concerns me. People taking out citizenship, signing on as police (my son had to swear an oath), joining the military and so forth rightly swear an appropriate oath. It's when it becomes "clubby" and showy as a public display of their patriotism that my ears perk up.
They had to loudly, publicly and frequently swear oaths in Nazi Germany and look what that did. I don't mean to compare say, Jerry's group to Nazis but the comparison of the activity is enough to make me very uncomfortable.
Answer this - what does the public display of swearing an oath by private citizens accomplish?
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats". The Water Rat from The Wind In The Willows
Sailing for 40 years in the Pacific, Atlantic, Caribbean but mostly Georgia Straight.
Currently own a Columbia 43.
I think some of the non-US Citizens here are missing the major point about Oath-Keepers.
They will follow the Constitution of the United States. Not what they perceive as illegal orders. Orders that violate the Constitution.
By publicly taking the oath, they are notifying the powers that be, they won't blindly follow illegal orders. That's quite a bit different than what the Nazis swore to. I think someone should apologize for that inference.
I think some of the non-US Citizens here are missing the major point about Oath-Keepers.
They will follow the Constitution of the United States. Not what they perceive as illegal orders. Orders that violate the Constitution.
By publicly taking the oath, they are notifying the powers that be, they won't blindly follow illegal orders. That's quite a bit different than what the Nazis swore to. I think someone should apologize for that inference.
MD, I think it is you that missed the point - the whole oath thing smacks of fanaticism and paranoia. I said in the OP that I WAS NOT implying in any way that I was doubting their sincerity or comparing them to Nazis - it was the eventual progression of the psychology that I was concerned about and commenting on - remember the old quote "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions"?
Society doesn't work very well if everyone is free to determine the law by their own perceptions. Illegal is Illegal - ordering someone to murder is illegal, personal perceptions of what the Constitution says are grounds for philosophical discussion or court cases, not for refusal to follow the law.
Would you agree with soldiers or police refusing orders to disarm anarchic mobs in the aftermath of a natural disaster because you felt it violated the 4th amendment?
Do the Oath keeper types support or deny the legitimacy of the Patriot act, Gitmo detentions etc.?
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats". The Water Rat from The Wind In The Willows
Sailing for 40 years in the Pacific, Atlantic, Caribbean but mostly Georgia Straight.
Currently own a Columbia 43.
How many oath keepers voted in the last national or local election? Part of being a citizen, not to mention being a patriot is voting so that your constitutional rights are protected by the government. What a crock of **** the Patriot Act is! Anybody remember what Habeus Corpus is? Remember that part "of the people, for the people by the people"?
Maybe all the time and energy spent by the oathkeepers would be better spent on educating the citizens and patriots how their constitutional rights are being trampled upon.
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