Greek referendum

[PCP]

Originally Posted by SloopJonB

That's a VERY recent view of European history. In actuality you have been killing, maiming and invading each other across such significant boundaries as 100 ' wide rivers since before the beginning of recorded history. ...

No other part of the world has so perfected the art and science of killing each other like the Europeans have.

How long ago was Kosovo???

Believe me I know well Europe. Look at France and Germany, enemies in two world wars and today the core of EC. EC had for decades a very deliberately policy to promote the exchange of young people by all EC. Besides young people today in Europe don't need pretexts to move around all countries. They all form a community that share common values, European values.

Kosovo is a different problem. Kosovo is a muslim enclave in Christian countries, a good recipe for racism and xenophobia.

Kosovo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem with the dissolution of Yugoslavia had to do with an imaginary nation created after the WWII without any national support. Several nations coexisted there and only a strong dictatorial regime prevented them to reach for independence.

When the communism went way the war only appeared because Serbia refused to recognize the independence of the other nations mainly because Serbia had only been recently out of a dictatorial regime and democratic institutions and democracy was yet a very superficial thing.

Originally Posted by SloopJonB

I've never sat down to calculate it but I'd be willing to bet that back as far as there are records, there hasn't been a period of more than 20 or 30 years when one or the other of you wasn't at war, sometimes elsewhere in the world, but usually with each other.

It is not fair to count Yugoslavia dissolution crisis as a war in Europe. Those countries did not belong to the EC and had been released recently (at the time) from communist dictatorial regimes. Out of the Maldivas case I don't remember any war action by any European country in the last 35 years and counting. The last wars were colonial wars, the French in Algeria and the Portuguese in Angola, Mozambique and Guiné.

Of course I don't consider a European war action the use of European armed forces at the service of UN.

Regards

Paulo

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by PCP

I don't remember any war action by any European country in the last 35 years and counting.

Exactly my point - 35 years out of the entire span of recorded history.

Originally Posted by PCP

The last wars were colonial wars, the French in Algeria and the Portuguese in Angola, Mozambique and Guiné.Regards Paulo

And the Belgians in the Congo and the Brits in Yemen and Kenya and Malaysia and the Falklands and the French in Indochina and... and...

The fact is Paulo, the Europeans are far and away the best and most persistent on the planet when it comes to war and killing. It is only VERY recently (as you acknowledge) that they have had anything but sundry hatreds and resentments between each other.

As the Brits used to say "The Wogs begin at Calais".

[PCP]

Originally Posted by SloopJonB

...It is only VERY recently (as you acknowledge) that they have had anything but sundry hatreds and resentments between each other.

As the Brits used to say "The Wogs begin at Calais".

35 years is a complete generation and let me tell you I don't believe you know what you are talking about. That is a thing that you have to fell and experiment, voyaging and living in EC countries and even if you do that as a tourist, it will not be the same thing. You are not one of us. And that's it, the Europeans look at themselves as "us" the Europeans, by opposition to others, including Americans.

It is a new thing? I hardly would call 35 years a new thing, it is a growing concept and I have not any doubt about what I have said and that I will re-post below. The Europe is already a cultural economic and cultural reality and is working actively to become a Political reality and that is an inevitability. We have already made a long journey since the EEC (economic community) that only en-globed some central European (created in 1957).

Originally Posted by PCP

Yes, I agree that a political union is the end goal but first, after the free market and free work (any EC member can work or do business in any EC country the next steep is equal economic rules, labor rules and some social rules like retirement age.

Regarding Europe's history it is much more what unites us than what divides us. Participating on this forum was a good way to understand how close the Europeans are among them regarding for example Europeans and US, and we are not far away from US. Even the British that are the ones closer to US are in my opinion much closer to other Europeans, I mean in culture and Politics and in the way they see reality.

Besides more than an union of countries EC is a union of cultures and most European countries have in them several cultures and nations. The EC represent to those nations more freedom, freedom that they have some difficulty in managing inside a country. More than a union of countries the EC will be a union of cultures and those are the richness of Europe.
...

Regards

Paulo

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by PCP

35 years is a complete generation and let me tell you I don't believe you know what you are talking about. That is a thing that you have to fell and experiment, voyaging and living in EC countries and even if you do that as a tourist, it will not be the same thing. You are not one of us. And that's it, the Europeans look at themselves as "us" the Europeans, by opposition to others, including Americans.

Actually I think I do - I lived there twice for 2 1/2 years, my sister moved to Florence and married an Italian so I have an Italian brother in law and niece and I'm not American, I'm Canadian so there is a bit more of a link there as well. As you can see, I'm not entirely ignorant of what is going on there.

Originally Posted by PCP

It is a new thing? I hardly would call 35 years a new thing, it is a growing concept and I have not any doubt about what I have said and that I will re-post below. The Europe is already a cultural economic and cultural reality and is working actively to become a Political reality and that is an inevitability. We have already made a long journey since the EEC (economic community) that only en-globed some central European (created in 1957). Regards Paulo

I'm also not arguing that the centuries old divisions, languages and hatreds are not falling away. I just think that 35 years (or even 54) is not very long, given the almost unbroken history of war and bloodshed that Europe boasts.

You've still got a long way to go - I wish you well but I'll wait and see how things turn out.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by SloopJonB

Actually I think I do - I lived there twice for 2 1/2 years, my sister moved to Florence and married an Italian so I have an Italian brother in law and niece and I'm not American, I'm Canadian so there is a bit more of a link there as well. As you can see, I'm not entirely ignorant of what is going on there.



I'm also not arguing that the centuries old divisions, languages and hatreds are not falling away. I just think that 35 years (or even 54) is not very long, given the almost unbroken history of war and bloodshed that Europe boasts.

You've still got a long way to go - I wish you well but I'll wait and see how things turn out.

Nice to know. I think you underestimate the mutual respect we have among us and the huge accomplishments that almost all European countries had made.

For many centuries the biggest enemy and rival of Portugal was Spain. Many wars were fight, wars that in some cases lasted for decades. We used to say that Portugal was an island, Spain on the side, the Ocean on the other. Our main ally during many centuries was Britain, in fact that alliance that is still active is the oldest alliance in the world and was established in 1373. Two "Islands" against continental Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance

Today Spanish and Portuguese are much closer than Portuguese and British. We regarded ourselves as Iberians and we have multi-cultural partnerships along the borders. We regard ourselves as brothers.

Italy, that you should know well, is a modern reality and what we call today Italy was a group of city states: Florence, Milan, Pisa, Venice and Genoa that were mortal enemies. For instance in the XV and XVI Genoa was a Portuguese allied against powerful Venice that controlled all Spice markets to the east and Venice had many Muslim allies.

As you know, notwithstanding centuries of bitter conflict today Italians are a strongly unified country, a proud country, because, like the Europeans regarding themselves, the Italians had culturally much more in common than what separated them.

According to your point of view, the ones that must bitterly had fought against each other and that at some time hated themselves more, should be the ones that had more trouble in getting along. It is not so. Cultural proximity is much more important than past conflicts.

Regards

Paulo

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by PCP

Nice to know. I think you underestimate the mutual respect we have among us and the huge accomplishments that almost all European countries had made.

For many centuries the biggest enemy and rival of Portugal was Spain. Many wars were fight, wars that in some cases lasted for decades. We used to say that Portugal was an island, Spain on the side, the Ocean on the other. Our main ally during many centuries was Britain, in fact that alliance that is still active is the oldest alliance in the world and was established in 1373. Two "Islands" against continental Europe.

Anglo-Portuguese Alliance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Today Spanish and Portuguese are much closer than Portuguese and British. We regarded ourselves as Iberians and we have multi-cultural partnerships along the borders. We regard ourselves as brothers.

Italy, that you should know well, is a modern reality and what we call today Italy was a group of city states: Florence, Milan, Pisa, Venice and Genoa that were mortal enemies. For instance in the XV and XVI Genoa was a Portuguese allied against powerful Venice that controlled all Spice markets to the east and Venice had many Muslim allies.

As you know, notwithstanding centuries of bitter conflict today Italians are a strongly unified country, a proud country, because, like the Europeans regarding themselves, the Italians had culturally much more in common than what separated them.

According to your point of view, the ones that must bitterly had fought against each other and that at some time hated themselves more, should be the ones that had more trouble in getting along. It is not so. Cultural proximity is much more important than past conflicts.

Regards

Paulo

Paulo, it's good to hear that things are progressing that well. The fact that you can work anywhere in the EU will turn out to be the most significant stabilizer I think. If you live and work with people you understand them a lot better than from a vacation or newspaper story.