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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Off Topic > Politics/Religion/War/Government
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2012
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I actually care less about "executive experience". Someone once said that we could have the first 437 people in the phone book and have a better government. Because it would take awhile for those 437 to figure out how to endlessly line their own pocket, I partly agree that this is true. We have a very professional government at every level. These are career people that pour their heart into their jobs and take it very seriously. They can advise our governing trustworthy-amateurs on the options available and the consequences of each possoble option.

What is an absolute fact is that government expenditures ratchet up over time. That and my kids are somehow in deep debt for no fault of their own. This is inexcusable in the most complete way. The term "bastards" comes immediatley to mind. How we can not fully support someone who wants to roll back the government is beyond me. Where is the argument? Do you feel that govt is not infringing your privacy and freedoms? With each new twitter download, gps-tracking-without-warrants, declaration that most Americans are terrorist suspects (the list includes just about everybody), I feel that things are running away from us and getting out of control.

And to the income tax statement. The rich already have their money and power, and have plenty of loopholes in the tax code. It's the middle class that pay the disproportionate amount of income tax. It's a lot like the free trade/fair trade argument. We don't have fair income tax -- and it sure as hell keeps incentive to work down. Get rid of it or make it less than 100 words long.

In short, Ron Paul seems to be the only one who hasn't been screwing me and my kids for their whole career, while inside trading (legally) against my interests, leaking the system through deceit and default.

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Last edited by Bene505; 01-13-2012 at 08:21 PM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2012
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Paul is an appealingly ethical man but if he were to implement his ideas it would quite simply destroy the USA. You can't simply change the course of something as huge as the USA - it would come apart at the seams. It would be similar to trying to immediately change the course of a supertanker - you can't, it has to be dome smoothly and gradually.

Eliminate the IRS - great - now how do you pay for the defense of the country? Most of his more extreme ideas stand up to about that amount of scrutiny. Wishing things were different ain't enough to make it so.

I once read a biography of an ex-president of GM. The writer asked him what he did to control the direction of the corporation. His answer was that he couldn't. He said words to the effect that "GM is such a huge, ponderous entity that real control is impossible - you can only try to nudge it in the general direction you want and hope it moves that way" (or words to that effect).

And GM is only a tiny part of the USA.

Ron Paul is unelectable because he is a dreamer wishing for an ideal world.
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Old 01-14-2012
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Many of the commenters on this thread are talking about the office of the president as though he were, oh I dunno, a prime minister, who has de facto control over both the legislative and executive branches of governments.

Ron Paul wants wants to do many things; some he can do on his own because it's a presidential power, like withdrawing troops and ending wars. Others he will need a Congress that supports him for, like amending the Constitution and altering tax law. It's not at all clear that Jeff's fears, in particular, could be realized.

There's no "destroy America" button on the desk in the Oval Office.
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Old 01-14-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamLein View Post
Many of the commenters on this thread are talking about the office of the president as though he were, oh I dunno, a prime minister, who has de facto control over both the legislative and executive branches of governments.
Yep - a PM with a majority is one of the most powerful politicians on the planet.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Paul is an appealingly ethical man but if he were to implement his ideas it would quite simply destroy the USA. You can't simply change the course of something as huge as the USA - it would come apart at the seams. It would be similar to trying to immediately change the course of a supertanker - you can't, it has to be dome smoothly and gradually.

Eliminate the IRS - great - now how do you pay for the defense of the country? Most of his more extreme ideas stand up to about that amount of scrutiny. Wishing things were different ain't enough to make it so.

I once read a biography of an ex-president of GM. The writer asked him what he did to control the direction of the corporation. His answer was that he couldn't. He said words to the effect that "GM is such a huge, ponderous entity that real control is impossible - you can only try to nudge it in the general direction you want and hope it moves that way" (or words to that effect).

And GM is only a tiny part of the USA.

Ron Paul is unelectable because he is a dreamer wishing for an ideal world.
He seems to be cognizant of the fact that things can't be changed overnight. I believe the perception that he is a hopeless idealist is an exaggeration created and promoted by the people that fear him.

I can spot an idealist a mile away.

I found this:

The Liberty Amendment



(the exerpt is at about the 3:40 mark)

....Okay, let’s talk about some of the coercive powers that the government now has, and how we might change it, how you might change it, or how you would like to change it if you become president. First of all, the IRS. I for getting rid of the whole damn institution. What about you?

Ron Paul: I’m with you, and I have something I’ve introduced over the many years, it’s called the Liberty Amendment. It gets rid of the 16th Amendment, it gets rid of the IRS. But it also prohibits that after three years the federal government can’t participate in anything that is designed for the private sector to take care, and is not authorized in the constitution. Because you can’t really expect to solve our problem of the IRS and heavy taxation unless we change the appetite of the people for big government. You know, the big argument now is how many people want entitlements and how many people want to quit paying for the entitlements. Right now there are still a lot of people who are lining up for their entitlements. Entitlements now are considered rights by nearly half of the people.

David Asman So let me just make sure I understand. So you’re saying before we put forth getting rid of the IRS, we have to convince the American public, those who have become accustomed to government help, that they shouldn’t get government help.

Ron Paul: No, I think you do them together. It’s just that if you and I had a program where we’re just going to get rid of the income tax, and we don’t cut spending and cut the appetite for big government, it’s not going to happen. They say we did get rid of the income tax and they put a sales tax on us of 35% or 40% that won’t solve our problems. It’s the appetite for money coming from us that makes the big difference. And I think in the long term, the people in this country have to ask the question, “What should the role of government be?” And, for me, it’s to defend liberty and not to run a welfare state and not to police the world.......





Ron Paul: End Obamacare, Abolish the IRS, Eliminate Support for Big Government
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2012
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Well, I must say that I'm a little disappointed. I expected that this thread would generate a little more interest. Especially with the self professed conservatives members.
The silence is deafening.
I'm getting the feeling that people are afraid of this man.
I suppose that Bljones is right. People cry out for smaller government, less government intrusion, lower taxes, spending cuts and when someone comes along that not only talks the talk but walks the walk, the people start getting afraid that they might actually get what they are asking for. Perhaps the ones crying out for all these things aren't really interested in seeing them come about. Perhaps they just like to talk tough.

I haven't really made up my mind about Dr. Paul. He really is saying the same sort of stuff that Ragnar used to preach. Less the silly rhetoric. So I'm a little concerned about sacrificing the environment on the altar of liberty and prosperity. However, Paul seems to be to be the antithesis of the politicians that I've grown to loath, an honest and very intelligent man with a track record.
I'm almost convinced to give him a chance. Certainly no one here has done a very good job of dissuading me.
Or answering my question for that matter.
But I appreciate the efforts.

Here is what appears to be Ron Paul's philosophy wrapped up in a nut shell should anyone be interested in discussing it.

The Liberty Amendment

Section 1. The Government of the United States shall not engage in any business, professional, commercial, financial or industrial enterprise except as specified in the Constitution.

Section 2. The constitution or laws of any State, or the laws of the United States shall not be subject to the terms of any foreign or domestic agreement which would abrogate this amendment.

Section 3. The activities of the United States Government which violate the intent and purpose of this amendment shall, within a period of three years from the date of the ratification of this amendment, be liquidated and the properties and facilities affected shall be sold.

Section 4. Three years after the ratification of this amendment the sixteenth article of amendments to the Constitution of the United States shall stand repealed and thereafter Congress shall not levy taxes on personal incomes, estates, and/or gifts.


SPEECH OF
HON. RON PAUL
OF TEXAS
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
THURSDAY, APRIL 30, 2009

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to introduce the Liberty Amendment, which repeals the 16th Amendment, thus paving the way for real change in the way government collects and spends the people's hard-earned money. The Liberty Amendment also explicitly forbids the Federal government from performing any action not explicitly authorized by the United States Constitution.

The 16th Amendment gives the Federal government a direct claim on the lives of American citizens by enabling Congress to levy a direct income tax on individuals. Until the passage of the 16th amendment, the Supreme Court had consistently held that Congress had no power to impose an income tax.

Income taxes are responsible for the transformation of the Federal government from one of limited powers into a vast leviathan whose tentacles reach into almost every aspect of American life. Thanks to the income tax, today the Federal government routinely invades our privacy, and penalizes our every endeavor.

The Founding Fathers realized that "the power to tax is the power to destroy," which is why they did not give the Federal government the power to impose an income tax. Needless to say, the Founders would be horrified to know that Americans today give more than a third of their income to the Federal government.

Income taxes not only diminish liberty, they retard economic growth by discouraging work and production. Our current tax system also forces Americans to waste valuable time and money on compliance with an ever-more complex tax code. The increased interest in flat-tax and national sales tax proposals, as well as the increasing number of small businesses that question the Internal Revenue Service's (IRS) "withholding" system provides further proof that America is tired of the labyrinthine tax code. Americans are also increasingly fed up with an IRS that continues to ride roughshod over their civil liberties, despite recent "pro-taxpayer" reforms.

Madam Speaker, America survived and prospered for 140 years without an income tax, and with a Federal government that generally adhered to strictly constitutional functions, operating with modest excise revenues. The income tax opened the door to the era (and errors) of Big Government. I hope my colleagues will help close that door by cosponsoring the Liberty Amendment.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2012
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Unfortunately, his good ideas like doing away with useless agencies like the Dept. of Ed. are trumped by his bad ideas like doing away with taxes to do the necessary business of government. His main positive is in the public voicing of his smaller government ideas which have gained credence because of him. It is just so sad that the Republicans don't have a better candidate in the bunch because I think Obama is going to seriously trounce any of them in a general election with his populist platform.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2012
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Quote:
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The Liberty Amendment

Section 1. The Government of the United States shall not engage in any business, professional, commercial, financial or industrial enterprise except as specified in the Constitution.
Does not the Constitution state "Promote the general welfare" or words to that effect?

Covers a lot of ground.

Where does an entity like the Lockheed Skunk Works fit in the Constitution? And please don't say it's a private company - if ever there was a quasi-governmental body, that is one. How about NASA? Did the founders foresee space travel and factor it in? We all know that private enterprise ain't gonna cut it there, NATIONS can just barely manage it.

Like I said, he is an appealingly ethical dreamer and for that reason alone is unelectable. Put him in charge of the OMB - he might actually do some good there.
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Old 01-14-2012
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In a nutshell, the President proposes, the Congress disposes. Paul is unelectable for the same reason a third party candidate is unelectable ... there's no way to implement his agenda.
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Old 01-16-2012
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Has anyone actually read his platform or plans?


Laura Trice: Dr. Ron Paul: 6 Reasons He Is Electable and Will Win

Laura Trice: Dr. Ron Paul's 11-Point Plan That Could Save America

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