A long but interesting read

[PBzeer]

The Once and Future Liberalism - Walter Russell Mead - The American Interest Magazine

[killarney_sailor]

That is a terrific read. Its length is indicative of the fact that complex issues require complex thought. We are too intellectually lazy and want all of our answers in short, easy sound bites.

Some thoughts from my reading (note particularly connected):

- Germany seems to have maintained a modern version of the 'Iron Triangle'. They have done remarkably well considering that they had to bring in the basically bankrupt east not too many years ago.

- In contrast to manufacturing in Germany, there was a laziness in North America when the Japanese started to get into making quality products; it was easier to let electronics, petrochemicals, shipbuilding and the rest go to Japan (and later China) rather than to innovate and fight back like Germany did. I fear it is too late to do much about this with existing industries, but there might be more possibiliites with new industries in energy, biotech and the like and this is where a better educated workforce is critical.

We are already a service-based economy but we need to do more to focus on export-oriented services and not on things like strange financial derivatives that only increase GDP but have no real substance.

- I loved the statement, "We cannot turn back the clock, nor should we try." We need to focus on new ideas, rather than fixing the old, broken ones. A lot of Obama's speech last night made the right noises but I am not sure that the rhetoric is backed up with the accetance of the reality, that old things that don't work have to be radically changed. As for the Republican contest, it has been so vacant of ideas of any sort that it is sad, verging on criminal.

- his comments on Obama's stimulus are right on. Used to have a friend who was deputy minister of finance of Ontario (top civil servant in the finance dept). He said that the way you recover from a recession is to 'pave things' - high multiplier effect and little leakage to outside economies. Obama's approach was not focussed enough. Keeping a teacher or a cop in a job in California does not stimulate the economy although it might stop it from regressing further; investing in long-term growth in solar technologies is too slow. Building the modern version of the Hoover Dam or the interstate highways does the trick

- I loved his analysis of the term 'liberal', it is terrific. Words really matter and here the meaning is so vague that discourse on the topic becomes fatally muddled.

- I don't think he gives enough attention to changes in demographics. He mentions it in terms of the aging population but not in terms of a lower population growth rate.

- Great statement, 'We cannot turn back the clock, nor should we try." Much of Obama's speech last night made the right noises but one wonders how much of it is just rhetoric. As for those in the Republican race the, less said the better. The absence of ideas of any sort, let alone innovative ones boggles the mind.

[jzk]

Originally Posted by killarney_sailor

...He said that the way you recover from a recession is to 'pave things' - high multiplier effect and little leakage to outside economies.

One nice thing about building roads is that it stimulates the economy beyond the expenditure itself. A road is merely a conduit for economic activity. Generally speaking, people that are sitting in traffic are on their way to work or are working, moving goods, or going somewhere to spend money. Alleviating the bottlenecks allows that economic activity to thrive.

[jzk]

In Illinois, one can check teacher salaries online by name. A few of years ago, I looked up my 7th grade science teacher and my soccer coach that also taught math. This was 20 years later and a public school in a very middle class neighborhood. The Science teacher was making $128,000 and the soccer coach $105,000. That is good money if you can get it, but I am just not sure it is sustainable. And, it is not uncommon to find administrators in the $300-$400k range.

One can also check out the top Illinois pensions:

Champion News | Top 100 Illinois State Pensions as of November 2011

I wonder what benefit Mr. Gupta bestowed on society that allowed him to "earn" his $414,000 annual pension at taxpayer expense...

[WouldaShoulda]

How DARE you??

"It's for the kids!!"

[SloopJonB]

Originally Posted by jzk

In Illinois, one can check teacher salaries online by name. A few of years ago, I looked up my 7th grade science teacher and my soccer coach that also taught math. This was 20 years later and a public school in a very middle class neighborhood. The Science teacher was making $128,000 and the soccer coach $105,000. That is good money if you can get it, but I am just not sure it is sustainable. And, it is not uncommon to find administrators in the $300-$400k range.

One can also check out the top Illinois pensions:

Champion News | Top 100 Illinois State Pensions as of November 2011

I wonder what benefit Mr. Gupta bestowed on society that allowed him to "earn" his $414,000 annual pension at taxpayer expense...

Your post implies those figures are typical or commonplace and we both know they aren't. A family member of mine was a high school teacher all her life - died at retirement. She taught French, Spanish and Science in NorCal, in a high end town and she sure as hell didn't make anything near those salaries - about 1/2 that I'd say. She was a very good teacher as well - the kind the kids come back to visit in later years.

This topic is heated enough, don't inflame it with distortions (I know, I know, all the figures are there but they only tell a tiny part of the whole story, as you well know)

[joethecobbler]

I don't believe the salary issue for teachers and education administrators and school suporvisors is that far off.
the average income of the educators and school administrators in the area I'm domiciling in is anywhere from 2-10 times the average non=goverment employee in this area. I can't quote the teacher salaries exactly but the administrators are knocking down six figures. when the factory workers and others are averaging 1/4 or 1/3 of that and thats not entry level thats after 5-10 years.
yea it's all for the kids.
Ironically , I've noticed that many of the local elected positions are sought by and occupied by retired "educators" collecting retirement from the teaching jobs (paid by taxes) and now they are on the public dole again (w/ all benefits etc.)
And they seem to be quite amicable in giving raises to all the other public employees on a regular basis because they feel they "deserve" raises.
meanwhile nobody that's working in the private sector is geting raises. they don't get that. as they never had to . they have no concept of where the money comes from as they have always lived in the shadow of the gov't paycheck.
I'm apposed to modern public education and would rather see a return to one room school houses and one teacher teaching multiple grades for basically subsistence wages.
I believe you would definetely get teachers who were there to teach children and produce educated young people , and not to get wealth and retirement benefits.

[PBzeer]

The results would certainly indicate that the stagnation of the American education system isn't due to a lack of compensation.

[BentSailor]

Honestly, the initial article was interesting. I disagreed with parts of it, but still it was in-depth and thought provoking. Sadly the thread devolved into the usual fare before I could finish it.

[killarney_sailor]

I agree with BS, that it appears the people could not be bothered to read a very well-written and interesting article.

About US teacher salaries, there is an enormous range. In Ontario there are relatively few school boards and the money comes from the provincial governments. The result is that teacher pay is within about 3% from highest to lowest with the highest being in really remote areas of the north. Top salaries are now in the $80k range I think with a principal getting ~$110k. Don't think these are at all out of line considering the training needed, the experience (10 years to get to highest salary level), and responsibilities.

When I was teaching we used to go to a computer science contest held in various locations in US with teams from all over the country. The teachers had several hours to sit and talk while kids were doing the contest. I was amazed at the salary differentials in US schools. At the time I was making in the $60k range (max then) and there were American teachers making $100k and I remember one guy from rural Michigan who had a master's degree in math who was making $32k.

Anyway, I am guilty of being part of the digression that I criticized. Read the article that PB posted. It is well worth the time.