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Provisioning water and power. Solar Recharging is it the right answer?

10K views 20 replies 12 participants last post by  camaraderie 
#1 ·
I intend to live aboard my MacGregor 26M. I have been warned that the three things you must be constantly aware of on a sailboat are:
1) Weight Capacity and the distribution of that weight onboard to maintain an even keel. I am going to be very, very careful about this.
2) Water Supply, especially for longer trips. I have provisioned my boat with a 35 gallon water resevoir in addition to the five gallon supply under the sink.
3) Power; I am going to have a dual battery system, especially important for my 50 hp Honda outboard. I have been told that redundancy is an absolute necessity, because most people who get in trouble on a sailboat do so for two reasons, bad weather and dead batteries.
Vigilence and a good weather radio should do as much as possible against bad weather, but...

backing up my power system so I am never dead in the water is the one that worries me.

My proposed solution:

A) A Honda EU2000i generator, which is capable of generating 2000 Watts but only weighs 47lbs.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/ModelDetail.asp?ModelName=eu2000i

B) Either a Coleman Solar Charging system @ 45 Watts

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11099458&whse=BC&topnav=&browse=

or

http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=VDC-SCC015

Can anyone help me in picking out the right recharging system?
 
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#2 ·
First of allI'm wondering about the need of a 50Hp engine? If you need that much change it to an Evinrude E-tech that may even be stared manually and have a much more powerfull chargingsystem even with a splitter for dual batteries.
I carried on my trip a Honda 1000W (ie1000) which is plenty of power, but the 12 volt output is not good for charging, you need a separate battery charger.
Solar panels does (normally) not charge an empty battery, but you may probably need some 3 - Amp efective charging. I advice to have one or two smaller panels that may be directed than fixed big ones. Note that just the shadow of a stay or shroud severly reduces the efficiency.
 
#3 · (Edited)
The little Honda generators are pretty nice but you really can't do much except turn them on and use the AC power they make. As noted you can't charge batteries with them.

Your solar panel solutions are too small to do you much good. With a really efficient fridge you might be OK with 150 watts. That is about what it takes in hot climates. It's just hard getting the real estate on a smaller boat for adequate solar panels - but they do work great and are pretty much trouble free. A voltage regulator is a requirement for them too. You have a serious power problem you can't solve easily unless you don't use refrigeration and add some solar panels.

I would not consider 35 gallons of water "generous" but perhaps adequate. I would try to add another 20 if you could. You'll be hauling water several times per week.

Gasoline may be your biggest problem. A 50 HP outboard and the generator will take a fair amount of it. I too wonder about a 50 HP outboard. There is a reason?

You are facing perhaps the biggest problem - a boat large enough to hold all your stuff and tankage. It's the part you will be forced to deal with the most. It may be so full you can't go sailing. It would not be the first time that happened.
 
#4 ·
Paul-
I have a friend who recently bought a Honda EU2000i for ham radio power use, he's quite happy with the 12VDC output for charging deep cycle batteries. And, the AC output is incredibly clean for a genset, see http://www.jkovach.net/projects/powerquality/ for some photos of scope tracings.
But a gasoline genset on a small boat is a danger. Once from the gasoline, a second time from the monoxide in the exhaust and I'd be more concerned about that.

I'd opt for the genset if AC and "power now" was the need...but if possible I'd prefer solar panels and just waiting it out until the starting battery was OK. (I've used a 12V 17Ah gel/AGM cell to start an 18hp diesel, I'd guess it will start a 50hp outboard just as well if there's no pull start hidden in there.<G> Didn't think it would work, but that's what is inside a lot of those "jump" boxes.)

The problem with solar panels is derating the output reliably...in medium latitudes and mixed wx, 25-30% of the rated output for six hours is about all I'd expect on any given day. (Better in June, worse in February, etc.)

A wind or water generator might be a better idea, certainly higher power output per hour for the initial cost.
 
#5 ·
I don't know what the longevity of the Honda generator will be in a marine environment. Most cruisers and liveaboards use wind and solar generation for electricity. The problem with using a generator is that you will constantly need to get fuel for it and the outboard. Fuel is heavy... wind generators and solar panels do not require fuel, but do add some weight.

For my boat, I'm using two 130 Watt solar panels, and plan on adding a wind generator in the future. When I am at the marina, I do have a shore power system, and an A/C powered battery charger, but when I'm out on the hook, I rely on the solar panels.

The main problem with solar panels is that cloudy weather really cuts their output. Wind generators can help make up the deficit.

One thing you haven't mentioned is what your typical electrical load will be. I have converted a lot of the lighting on my boat to LED-based lights, to cut down on the electrical load.
 
#6 ·
Power management is key

The bottom line to all the charging discussion is that you MUST know 1) your daily usage in amp/hours, 2) your usable battery capacity in amp/hour--most people use 50% of rated capacity, and 3) your charging capacity in amps per hour. So, you must figure out your usage first, and only then can you decide if you have enough battery capacity to live that way. If so, then you need to match your charging ability to that battery bank, i.e. you want to be able to replace used amp/hrs regularly without straining your charging setup. If you're talking about a boat at a mooring with a small bank that has nothing normally on, then a small solar panel will probably do to keep the battery charged. However, if you have a 1000ah battery bank and use 400ah a day, obviously even a wind generator won't get the job done and an auxilary generator (diesel) would be necessary or a high output alternator that you would run once a day. It's really hard to speak to your situation without having specifics.

One thing you might consider is a low-voltage cutoff switch for a high use device like a 12v fridge. It's basically a relay switch that keeps the power on as long as your battery voltage is above a certain level, then cuts off when it drops below that (only uses about 10 mA when in use). I have one on my boat wired only for the 12v fridge so that if I go away from the boat for longer than expected I won't come back to a dead battery bank. I even use this at the marina because sometimes even shorepower fails for a while.

Cheers,
Mark
 
#7 ·
When you have an engine that you cannot start by hand, it is vital that you separate your battery (banks). We have, for years now, had a house bank with good deep-cycle batteries, and a starting battery or bank with good cranking power. We NEVER draw from the engine batteries for house loads. Be sure you can fully isolate the engine battery from other uses. This way if your house batteries fade away, you can be sure of being able to start your engine and recharge.
The new battery monitoring systems that track your usage and indicate remaining time can be very helpful in analyzing your usage and to let you know when it's time to recharge before it's too late. Just be sure to set them up to accurately reflect your amphour capacity.
 
#8 ·
You are trying to get a quart out of a pint pot. The mac 26 is great for what it is, but a long term passage making boat with storage capacity is not one of those.

It achieves its dual role by being as light as possible, thus it is not within its design parameters to be loaded up for cruising in the way that you envisage. IMHO either use it in the way it is designed or get a more suitable boat for proper cruising.
 
#10 ·
Bkohatl... You speak of longer trips. What kind of trips and where do you plan to head. Will you have refrigeration or an ice chest?
If you really plan to live aboard on "the hook" for extended periods then your boat does not have the ability to carry the needed solar and wind power to keep your batteries topped up without impairing your ability to sail! MANY cruisers today are happily charging their batteries with the little Honda...With a small battery bank and a decent small charger driven by the Honda...you will have everything you need and since you are already carrying gas for the outboard, there is no additional safety risk. Just try to turn the damn thing off before dark!
 
#11 · (Edited)
Camarderie-

The real problem with using a small Honda generator, especially if you plan on cruising long distances, is the fuel it consumes. Wind generators and solar panels require no fuel, and are probably lighter than the generator is, and over the long haul, have a much better power to weight ratio.

The weight of the fuel needed over a long period is probably far more detrimental to the sailing performance of a Mac26, than properly designed solar panel mounts. The solar panel mounts could be designed to be removable, as they are on my boat, and do not necessarily need to have an impact the boat's ability to sail.

The other issue is a safety one... being dependent on a single fuel for both motive power and electrical power is dangerous on a cruising boat. Not having an independent way to charge the batteries, without using fuel that might be needed for the motor strikes me as unwise, if not foolish. What if the gasoline that was used to charge the batteries and run the refrigerator, ended up causing the Mac26 to not have enough to motor in subsequent heavy weather?

Solar panels and wind generators, properly designed, will allow them to use the refrigerator, while not touching the limited fuel that they can carry.
 
#12 ·
Esconditas uses a honda EU2000I to make up Ah used during the day/night. We have a hart 2500W inverter / 130 amp charger and 685 Ah rolls batteries. Hooking up the honda to the 30amp power inlet and running the hart at 20 amp power share setting I will get 60 to 70 amps dc for charging, and a little ac left over to power other little chargers or light ac loads. CO should not be a problem if the boat is on the hook and the gen set is on the back deck.

You can't beat the Honda for quite operation.. And I think if you spray the honda down with Boeshield that will solve some of the problems of using the unit on the water. Of course if you only put in enough gas to do the job, and run it dry before you put it up, you can find a place down below that will keep it out of the wether. Or Make a cover for it, keep it locked on deck.
 
#13 ·
On the following web site you reference:

http://www.jkovach.net/projects/powerquality/

in the last section of that article you see the following:

Final notes

A standard 120V wall socket has a "hot" connection, a "neutral" connection, and a ground. If you measure the AC voltage between hot and ground, you will see 120V. Neutral and ground are tied together in your breaker box and measuring between the two at a wall socket should read 0. (If it measures more than a few volts, it's a potential safety hazard and you should probably call an electrician.) Measuring between hot and neutral yields 120V. Appliances draw current through the hot and neutral terminals and are connected to ground for safety. Appliances do not draw current through the ground connection.
A standard 240V wall socket has two "hot" terminals that are 180 degrees out of phase and a ground. Measuring between the two hot terminals will show 240V; measuring between either hot and ground will yield 120V. Appliances draw from the two hot terminals and therefore see 240V.

However, I measured several of the inverter devices here (the Back-UPS 650, 500, and the Honda generator) and noted that when the inverter is in operation both hot-ground and neutral-ground read around 60 volts. When you measure between hot and neutral, the reading is 120V. The 120V sockets on an inverter appear to operate similarly to 240V utility sockets. Since the appliance sees the 120V between hot and neutral, it should operate properly. However, I've seen wiring diagrams for older electronics (specifically a Hallicrafters SX101 ham radio from sometime in the fifties or sixties) that only have a two prong plug and connect the neutral line of the plug to the metal chassis as a ground! If you plug such a device into an inverter that has a good connection to earth ground, and touch the metal chassis of the device, you could get a shock. The manual for the Honda generator has a bunch of warnings about ensuring that grounds are connected in accordance with applicable electrical codes, and this is probably why.
Jesse Kovach
7/5/2005

I have observed the same voltage readings as indicated above and am concerned about whether indeed the Honda 2000 is safe to use plugged into the shore power of the boat. When I tried mine for the first time I observed a reverse polarity situation on my boat power panel and immediately turned things off and unplugged the generator until I could discipher what was happening.

I've talked to the local Honda dealer and he measured the same voltage condition as described above and also observed with a socket tester the same reverse polarity indication that I had. This was observed on every Honda 2000 that he tested. The only thing he would stand behind was the quality of the 120 volt output using his load tester. He would not comment on the reverse polarity situation.

An independent generator repair shop made the same observations as I did and indicated that they did not think this reverse polarity condition should be present.

A third look by a reputable Marine Electronics Supply/Repair facility strongly felt that the use of the Honda 2000 in a marine environment with this 60 volt indication between the neutral and ground and hot and ground was a definite safety hazard.

A fourth source, namely Honda directly, has not yet provided an answer.

I would like to solicit yours and any others about this situation before I plug it back in directly. I might settle to use it separately with an electrical appliance onboard, but it still seems as if it might be a safety hazard.

Is there a way of contacting Jesse Kovach directly? He seems to be fairly knowledgeable.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Concerned Larry
 
#14 ·
On the following web site referenced above:

http://www.jkovach.net/projects/powerquality/

in the last section of that article you see the following:

Final notes

A standard 120V wall socket has a "hot" connection, a "neutral" connection, and a ground. If you measure the AC voltage between hot and ground, you will see 120V. Neutral and ground are tied together in your breaker box and measuring between the two at a wall socket should read 0. (If it measures more than a few volts, it's a potential safety hazard and you should probably call an electrician.) Measuring between hot and neutral yields 120V. Appliances draw current through the hot and neutral terminals and are connected to ground for safety. Appliances do not draw current through the ground connection.
A standard 240V wall socket has two "hot" terminals that are 180 degrees out of phase and a ground. Measuring between the two hot terminals will show 240V; measuring between either hot and ground will yield 120V. Appliances draw from the two hot terminals and therefore see 240V.
However, I measured several of the inverter devices here (the Back-UPS 650, 500, and the Honda generator) and noted that when the inverter is in operation both hot-ground and neutral-ground read around 60 volts. When you measure between hot and neutral, the reading is 120V. The 120V sockets on an inverter appear to operate similarly to 240V utility sockets. Since the appliance sees the 120V between hot and neutral, it should operate properly. However, I've seen wiring diagrams for older electronics (specifically a Hallicrafters SX101 ham radio from sometime in the fifties or sixties) that only have a two prong plug and connect the neutral line of the plug to the metal chassis as a ground! If you plug such a device into an inverter that has a good connection to earth ground, and touch the metal chassis of the device, you could get a shock. The manual for the Honda generator has a bunch of warnings about ensuring that grounds are connected in accordance with applicable electrical codes, and this is probably why.
Jesse Kovach
7/5/2005

I have observed the same voltage readings as indicated above and am concerned about whether indeed the Honda 2000 is safe to use plugged into the shore power of the boat. When I tried mine for the first time I observed a reverse polarity situation on my power panel and immediately turned things off and unplugged the generator until I could discipher what was happening.

I talked to the local Honda dealer and he measured the same voltage condition as described above and also observed with a socket tester the same reverse polarity indication that I had. This was observed on every Honda 2000 that he tested. The only thing he would stand behind was the quality of the 120 volt output using his load tester. He would not comment on the reverse ploarity situation.

An independent generator repair shop made the same observations as I did and indicated that they did not thing this reverse polarity condition should be present.

A third look by a reputable Marine Electronics Supply/Repair facility strongly felt that the use of the Honda 2000 in a marine environment with this 60 volt indication between the neutral and ground and hot and ground was a definite safety hazard. The felt from a liability standpoint that ould not advise me to use the Honda 2000.

A fourth source, namely Honda directly has not yet provided an answer.

I would like to solicit yours and any others about this situation before I plug it back in directly if at all. I might settle to use it separately with an electrical appliance onboard, but it still seems as if it might still be a safety issue.

Is there a way of contacting Jesse Kovach directly? He seems to be fairly knowledgeable.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Concerned Larry
 
#15 ·
When using a portable generator connected to the shore power plug on a boat it is normal for the reverse polarity lite to come on. The reason for this is that when connected to shore power both the ground wire and the neutral wire of the marina are connected to grounding post (usually at the main junction box) which is physically connected to the earth. It is only when the hot wire and the neutral wire are reversed (usually in the dock side plug) that the reverse polarity lite comes on. When using a potable generator there is no physical connection to the earth (this is called a floating ground) as such the reverse polarity lite has no reference and comes on. This could be solve by connecting the ground and neutral wires to the water i.e. the keel or prop shaft. However this is a VERY BAD IDEA as this will cause current eddies that eat up your zincs very quickly, we're talking hours, and after the zincs then the prop, engine, shaft, thru hulls, and just about anything else that is metal.

I have been living on the hook for five years relying on solar panels and a Honda 1000 for all my power needs with no problems, although my batteries are nearing the end of their useful life

Nate
 
#17 ·
Hi,
Having lived aboard, I can tell you that with only 26 ft of space you will not have room for a generator and 12 volt cooler is not going to fit. If you are at a marina you could use shore power to charge your batteries. A small solar panel could be used for power to charge a small battery for your lights. Your 50 hp should be changed for something like a 15hp hand start. As far as water you would be doing good to get 35 gal. stored on board. You just don't have a boat as big as your likes.
Tom
 
#18 ·
Trying to live aboard a sailing vessel that's less than 30 feet will surely end wind up with you wishing you hadn't, looking for a bigger boat, and looking like you have no idea what you're up against.

Living aboard can be very nice, I live aboard, I would suggest it to anyone who loves the water. That being said, where are you planning on showering? Have you thought about hot water? How about holding tank size - that thing has about a port-a-potty in it (And judging by the photo it might actually be a port-a-potty). Do you know how many times you can take a crap in a port-a-potty? Not many. Do you know how badly they stink? Pretty badly.

How about cooking?

Again, how about showering?

A had a neighbor this summer come in on a J27 saying he was going to live aboard it. By the end of the summer, he had traded his J27 for a Cruise-A-Home.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I know I cannot say anything that can trump the experienced sailors on here, so I won't try.

What I will say, is what I have learned about my boat and power consumption.

I have a CAL 27, though I do not live aboard I do spend 4 days/3 nights a week on her and have stayed as long as 10 days. I do not have any shore power at all. I have one solar panel that is 10 years old and is 4' X 2' (give or take an inch) that was givin to me.

I have three batteries (one start and two house), which are all sealed wet batt's. All are three years old and are the cheaper ones out there. I did buy a $150 dollar 'solar controller' from west marine that gives me the battery volts, usage, and the power coming from my panel.

What I have to power is my lights, my stereo which has CD/Mp3/Flash card/SD card, plus a seperate Sirius satallite reciever, VHF w/dual stations, Depth finder, Garmin GPS/Plotter, Garmin Fish finder/speed/and a backup depth finder, recharge my phone, recharge AA and AAA batts (for my camera, small flashlights, cold soldering iron, and lanterns) by way of using a plug in cigarette lighter inverter.

From the getgo I'd really thought I'd be I'd be strapped for power. But as it turns out, I am doing GREAT! I jam and I mean I REALLY JAM the tunes whenever I want, sometimes all night with friends on the dock. I turn on whatever I want when I want and I have never went below 12.2 on the battery usage.

Rain or shine I get some kind of charge off that panel. It always keeps the batteries charged and ready by noon.

I will use two wind up LED 'lanterns' through out the night inside. These in my opinion are well worth the big ol' $14 bucks each from Target online (stainless exterior and a little compass on the top) to give you enough light to do whatever (including Scrabble at 2 AM) you need to do. One note: these are great for 'night lights' click it on only one led and you get a nice glow and it will slowly dim as you drift off into a much needed slumber. You can even get order a cord to recharg you phone if needed (not that I have yet). The best $28 bucks I have spent.

If I was going to buy a generator (just my 2 pennies) I would buy or at least look at that tiny Yamaha they have out now. A guy on my dock has one and that little beeotch is kickin'! The thing is like a brief case almost. It's like 14X18X7 give or take, and it's actually 'conditioned' power, like for computers. It's small, very quiet, and uses very little fuel (gas four stroke). Plus Yamaha's are great for reliability.

I would look into 'power conserving' vs. 'power consumption'. Even if you "live aboard" your more than not going to be at a dock. So you have the ultimate access to all that you need. If your on the hook I'd think a couple solar panels, even a wind generator, and a back up generator is all that you'd need. Even with the 'fridge.

As for all those "cooking" comments I have a gimble Force Ten single burner propane stove on my rail and a Magma charcoal grill. Yes, I did say a CHARCOAL grill. I LOVE a REAL grill. I buy my charcoal in the big bags and take ziplock 1 gallon freezer bags and split it up into about 6-8 freezer bags (to keep moisture out, fill them about 1/2-2/3 full and always reuse the bags). Get the lighter fluid from Family Dollar for $2 bucks a quart and your cookin'. Plus on the crazy side, if you run out of fuel there's a bunch of shtuff you can burn to make a hot meal. I do have a two burner propane stove inside but I hate to heat up the cabin with it right now.

Hell, my bro owns a 31' Island Packet with 6 4X2 Panels, wind generator, a one lung diesel generator, and two engine alternators. He piles all that into a AGM battery bank that weighs more than the average car, and is ready to stay 'on the hook' until the food runs out. But guess what? He's just like most of the boaters out there and almost never leaves the dock.

As Sergeant Schultz would say " I know Noszing!"
 
#20 ·
Mac 26 for cruising?

I was going to start this reply by asking you where you got those cock-eyed ideas but then I remembered,
When I got out of the military service back in 69, I moved into a VW Bus and traveled around the US for a couple of years.
To be comfortable in the boat you chose, you have to set back and take a real good look at what you have and what you'll need,
It will also be really hard for anyone to relate the questions you have to what works and what wont work.
Myself, I'm packing "4" 150 watt solar pannels, a Four Winds generator, and a high amp "130" Balmer amp on the motor, 8 each of the 8D freedom gel cell batteries, 200 gal of water and a spectra watermaker. Now this is the MINIMUM I've been able to get by with while cruising or living aboard, so to compare your list with what it takes me to get by, you cant compare...
But If you really want to move aboard the Mac 26, go ahead and do so, and then add as you need.. you'll probably find you outgrow the boat really fast...............
Randy
 
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