SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

America's Cup opening races

11K views 76 replies 35 participants last post by  Omatako 
#1 ·
I suppose I'm going to try to stream them from anchor this afternoon. Despite the advantage of keeping the races in the US, I find myself having to root against Oracle. Let the races go to NZ and we can get them back with another club. Hopefully, Ellison is banned in the meantime.

It doesn't seem like they are the commercial success they hoped either.....

In fact, with fewer competitors than anticipated taking part in the preliminary racing this summer, the crowds at San Francisco's waterfront were significantly lighter than planned for and merited a reduced police presence, said Sergeant Dennis Toomer of the San Francisco Police Department.

"Because the boaters have scaled back, we've scaled back," he said. The crowds have been so light, he said, that "sometimes it's hard to decide if people are out there for the America's Cup or for a walk."
. :rolleyes:
 
#3 ·
I don't understand the negative about these all out race machines having some technical difficulties in a year old race class. Ever watch the indy 500, the FI, Reno air races or the redneck mud bogs. they all have break downs because they are pushing the limit. Even the 4 knot s**t boxes we sail had their problems in their day and still do. remember the 12 meter that broke in two in 15 knots of breeze. The Americas cup boats are always at the edge of the technology for the time. The boats are amazing and the people that had the vision that it could be done are some of the most amazing people on the plant.
Root against your own team now thats the sprit
 
#5 ·
Root against your own team now thats the sprit
Sorry, but the fact that Team Oracle is underwritten by a billionaire who happens to be an American isn't sufficient to make a syndicate headed by a Kiwi in Russell Coutts, and a boat skippered by an Aussie in Jimmy Spithill, qualify as "my team"... :)

I'll be pulling for ETNZ all the way, sending the Cup back down to Auckland, and to a country where the general populace truly appreciates yachting, would seem to be the best chance to restore some sanity to the event, at this point...
 
#4 ·
Personally, Not sure it is root against your own team, as it is root against someone that does not seem to want to play fair per say. I do hope the US retains the cup. But prefer it not to be Ellison!

as far as break downs go. No different than the volvo 70's or equal in the round the world race(s). A few other class's that push the envelope per say do have break downs also. For many it is more of the high brow we are above you all attitude of one group.

Marty
 
#6 ·
As a kid growing up in Boston my family thought I was weird watching AC racing on ESPN and just loving it, this latest concoction of AC racing is just awful. I've yet to see one "exciting" race and there is no doubt Ellison is bad for the sport.

AC racing should be reasonable size mono-hulls IMHO....
 
#13 ·
AC racing should be reasonable size mono-hulls IMHO....
I miss the 12 meters in Newport as well. However, the 12's were a bastardized version of the AC. The genesis of the AC was, I have a bad a**s boat come see if you can beat it.

80% of all sailing races involve reasonably sized mono-hulls. The AC is supposed to special. This is closer to the roots of the AC. See if you can make a boat faster than mine. The AC is about the boat, not the crew.

My jaw drops watching these boats go over 40kts. I still can't believe they can really do that.
 
#10 ·
I'll root for ORACLE.
Some one has too. I'll sit in the ORACLE section of the bleachers all by myself.

It's just a boat race in extremely interesting boats. A boat race.
I'll leave it to the really smart people to try and turn it into a complex international social /economic/political incident.
 
#21 ·
I'll root for ORACLE.
Some one has too. I'll sit in the ORACLE section of the bleachers all by myself.
---
You'll have me for company, Bob.
I was sitting in a bar where EVERYBODY else was only interested in the Georgia vs South Carolina football game.
Having no volume to hear the announcers, can anybody tell me what the problem was with Oracle's main?
I have to admit to being very amused at a gazillion dollar ultra high tech boat being repaired with what seemed to be black duct tape.
 
#12 ·
I'd love to see the Americas Cup raced in J Class boats like Endeavor and Shamrock. Modern materials would be allowed like carbon fiber for the mast and hull and Mylar sails. The size specks of the class would be required to be consistent with the old J class boats. Wood coach roofs and bronze hardware would be required on the deck.
 
#16 ·
It looks like the penalties Oracle suffered will be their death knell. They may have had a chance making up the two race deficit if they got to keep all their crew, but losing crew AND being penalized two races could just do them in. Legs 3 & 4 were dominated by the Kiwis! Not sure even the lost crew could make up for that.

7 to go for the Kiwis, 11 for Oracle. Oracle needs to pray for lighter winds.
 
#19 ·
Hey Julie, not for the sake of just being contrary but if the NZ boat wins race after race, the penalty of two races is less important than the loss of key crew personnel but then again, they were racing two identical boats with very similar performance side by side for months. How can they be short of skilled crew? Makes no sense to me.

The most telling thing from the first two races is that Oracle made a huge tactical blunder choosing to race their "slower" boat in favour of the "more stable" one. In this event it is clear that speed is everything. If you don't have speed, stability is moot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: capta
#17 ·
I thought it was fascinating. I've never watched before, so it's all new to me. As Mr. Perry said, it's a boat race- and a hell of a cool one at that. I'm interested to know why, exactly, team Oracle fared so poorly and whether they can right the ship before it's too late.
 
#18 ·
I read all these posts and wonder. Good book called Temple To The Wind talks about the designs (Herreshoff) of the late 1800s to the turn of the century, and the history and controversies of the America's Cup races. I'm hearing the exact same complaints today that they heard over a hundred years ago. People thought the designs were to radical and not traditional enough. People were upset that the crew (and captain) was not American. People felt it was too much about the wealthy robber barons funding the races. Seems to me the Race is turning out as traditional as it ever was.
 
#20 ·
In the first race things were fairly even regarding boat speed, that is until the wind kicked up during the 3rd leg, the upwind leg. Then the Kiwis started inching ahead.

Jobson said the guy who replaced wing trimmer Dirk de Ridder was 21 years old and just wasn't doing the job, compared to de Ridder. I'm guessing Jobson felt the loss of de Ridder was part of the reason why Oracle lost so much ground on legs 3 & 4.

It appeared that as the wind increased, the Kiwi boat got noticeably more out of it than Oracle, while sailing upwind. How much of that could have been negated with de Ridder trimming the wing, I can't say. But if the winds are light, I think Oracle has a chance, though slim considering they need 11 wins before the Kiwis get 7. And that location wasn't chosen because it's known for light winds.
 
#22 ·
Mike:
I can meet you in the bar tomorrow or you can come to my beach shack. We'll watch together. I didn't see the repair. The Indians (I live on the Tulalip Reservation) were pulling a beach seine net up onto the beach and I wanted to go see the salmon. 1,000 lbs. of salmon on the beach at your feet is a lot more fun than the America's Cup.

"What happens in the sweat lodge, stays in the sweat lodge."
 
#53 ·
--- The Indians (I live on the Tulalip Reservation) were pulling a beach seine net up onto the beach and I wanted to go see the salmon. 1,000 lbs. of salmon on the beach at your feet is a lot more fun than the America's Cup.

"What happens in the sweat lodge, stays in the sweat lodge."
Hey Bob -
Did you get a salmon for dinner? Or is that the kind of thing that stays in the sweat lodge?
Anyway, at least Oracle won one. It was starting to look like Barker owned Spithill.
We shall see.
 
#23 ·
The speed of those boats is boggling. The TV graphics that look like they are actually in the water are very cool. The whole thing is so over the top it is indescribable.

It makes for a lot better spectating than the older boats but I'd like to see the races be a little more than a quick sprint around a short course. They should have to race out to the Farallones and back. :D
 
#31 · (Edited)
Sure, the sheer speed is impressive, no question... So is that of a top fuel dragster. And that seems to me what Ellison has done to the AC, transformed it from Grand Prix racing into the more uniquely American form of Drag Racing...

It's stunning to me how many of the elements of yacht racing have been REMOVED by the use of these boats... Gone are so much of the TACTICS, and gone are so much of the crew work, particularly SAIL HANDLING...

The very short starting sequence, and the downwind starts are a joke... These boats are so ungainly, so unmaneuvarable at slow speeds, the fascinating pre-start chess match and delicate jockeying for an advantage that were unique to the AC are history... With these off the wind starts, gone is the possibility of the tactical choices of one end of the line seeming favored, the possibility of splitting tacks immediately, or even something as bold as attempting a port tack start... Instead, we have this drag race to the first mark, and whoever gets there first, it's game over...

But ultimately, it's the sheer speed of these boats which has removed so much of the interest in the actual sailing of these boats, for me... The fact that no matter what 'point of sail' they're on, they are virtually always sailing close-hauled has largely removed the crew from the equation. Gone are the use of free-flying downwind sails, the majestic spinnaker sets, the amazing teamwork involved during a jibe, and the incredible tacking duels that gave the trailing boat a chance to force the leader into making a mistake... Pretty much the sole 'tactic' I see in these races is keeping the boat up on the foils during a jibe, the ability to do that alone seems to be the decider in these races that are nothing more than a procession after the drag race to the first mark... Has anyone actually been able to determine visually what the crew is actually doing on these boats, aside from running from side to side on the nets, and grinding winches?

Yeah, the speed of these boats is impressive, alright... And the races so far about as interesting to me as a drag race, and over just about as quickly... I'm thinking there is a very strong possibility that, barring some sort of gear failure/breakdown, we'll make it through an entire AC series without seeing a single race that has not been decided in the first 45 seconds, and that stupid drag race to the first jibing mark...
 
#26 ·
I have to give a plug for the YouTube America's Cup channel coverage. After giving up on finding a bar showing the race, we just watched it on our projector and it was just amazing watching the race on the 'big screen'. Can't compare it to the NBC coverage as I don't have a TV but I thought they did a great job.
 
#27 ·
Espn2 also covered the race, at least down here in Grenada. I found the commercials on NBC to be absolutely disgusting; with such short races, why couldn't they put the commercials before and after the races? Perhaps they broadcast the soaps well, but they should never be allowed to broadcast sailing again.
 
#28 ·
The first race was fantastic, especially after snore of the LV cup though I enjoyed the RBAC youth regatta. Too bad the last race was abandoned.

What the AC34 needs is another lap. 1 beat doesn't cut it as beating appears to have more passing opportunities.

The second race most likely should have gone to Oracle. ETNZ fouled them at the start it just unbelievable they were not penalised! One of the biggest things about match racing is the start. Now that appears to be taken away by the jury.

I'll sit in the ORACLE section of the bleachers all by myself.
Maybe the reason you will be alone is becasuse your grumpy Bob.
 
#30 ·
I tried to watch it last night. It's interesting, but it's a funny kind of sailing.

I watched every twelve meter AC race since I was a teenager, most multiple times on the VCR.

I turned it off this time before I even saw who won. I just don't care.
 
#32 ·
Naturally, the shoreside crowds were big for race 1. I will be curious to see what happens in the coming races. I'm also curious what viewership ratings look like. Given they've managed to divide the sailing community themselves, I doubt they drew in many new viewers.

As I watched yesterday, I was trying to put myself in the shoes of a non-sailor. Having no idea what a tack, jibe, rights, downwind, etc, even are, it would be impossible to get into the race. I even heard the announcer analyze VMG, using the acronym, not describing the point in plain English. In most sports, you can quickly grasp whom is winning and scoring points.

A non-sailor sees the big boats up on foils. Oooooo, ahhhhhh. Then you're lost, particularly as they head n different directions, until the finish line, which you don't even know is coming until they tell you.
 
#38 · (Edited)
As I watched yesterday, I was trying to put myself in the shoes of a non-sailor. Having no idea what a tack, jibe, rights, downwind, etc, even are, it would be impossible to get into the race. I even heard the announcer analyze VMG, using the acronym, not describing the point in plain English.

A non-sailor sees the big boats up on foils. Oooooo, ahhhhhh. Then you're lost, particularly as they head n different directions, until the finish line, which you don't even know is coming until they tell you.
Actually this is no different to any other yacht race and actually the older AC's had much more of this than the AC34. And it is really no different to me watching baseball or grid iron football - I have no idea of the rules and don't much care so I don't watch it. Every sport has it's knowledgeable followers and the also-watched. I never hear the commentators in a grid iron match explaining the rules - you either know them or you don't.

In most sports, you can quickly grasp whom is winning and scoring points.
Watching the scoreboard and knowing who is winning is not as good as watching the game and knowing who is winning.

I know hindsight is a perfect science but having watched races 3 and 4 today, this is full-on match racing at 40 knots - it is nail-biting stuff at least for me it is. And if Spithill continues to meddle with Barker's start process, Oracle are right back in this.

ETNZ took 39 seconds off Oracle on an upwind leg in race 3 and nothing in race 4 and Oracle won so things are evolving. I reckon this event is going to improve with every race. It's not over till it's over.
 
#33 ·
Jon

I agree with most of your points concerning sail handling and tactics. However in the first race there were lead changes on the beat and Oracle lost due to a tactical decision on the beat. As I said in another post that the race should add at least another lap so they could go to windward where it appears some movement either way can occur. It might also help if they had different courses instead of W/L (L/W in this case) with a hook at the start and a hook at the finish.
 
#34 ·
What I don't like about the AC 34 is the fact Ellison made it so expensive to participate it took competitors, that would have normally considered entering, out of the game.

OTOH...

I loved the 12s. The Js are breathtaking. But I understand the idea of getting the rest of the world interested in the America's Cup. Before the first American loss, the Cup was hardly a blip on the sports scene. And for a while, its fan base and press coverage jumped after that loss. But then it dropped again. So I get Ellison trying to stir up a fan base but there are so many obstacles in accomplishing this.

In an attempt to increase the fan base, golf introduced "stadium golf" where one or more holes on a course were surrounded with stands and the typically quiet crowd was allowed to cheer, hoot and holler. A lot of golf fans hated this, but it's still here, though used sparingly.

But stadium sailing won't work. Will they try to build stands on the Golden Gate Bridge? I can't see how they could get the fans closer unless they set up a floating stadium. Think of all the problems that would introduce.

But I agree, sailing terminology needs to be well explained or you'll lose the non-sailors quickly. To their credit, NBC did have some text boxes pop up but there was no way they could have done that for all the sailing terminology used by the announcers during the race, and still allow the viewer time to watch the race.

I think this will be a one and done for the AC 72s. But if the boats used in the next Cup can't amaze the fans in some other way, the new fans will walk. And if Oracle keeps losing decisively, the new fans will start vanishing before the series is over.
 
#35 ·
AC or any of the major yacht races will never be mass market spectator sports, nor should they be. Trying to market these events like ipods (or some gadget made by Oracle) is somehow out of place.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top