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  #11  
Old 09-08-2013
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
So you are saying Oracle is conspiring to throw the AC?
I'd first look at the Jury...

Paragraph 96 of the decision:
96. The Jury has no intention to impose a penalty that will determine the outcome of the Match, which should best be determined on the water and not in the Jury room. But for these mitigating factors the penalty would have been heavier.

Paragraph 99 of the decision:
99. Pursuant to Protocol Article 15.4(d)(iv), OTUSA shall be penalised one point for each of the first two races of the Match in which they would otherwise score a point.

In all of sports have you ever heard of a team starting a championship event with their score in the negative column? Imagine a Super Bowl with one team starting out -14 points, or a World Series with one team needing to win two more games than the other to take the Series or the same kind of thing in basketball, soccer, etc. The fans would be screaming bloody murder.

But therein lies the difference. Most sailing fans don't care about this decision, or if they do, they aren't getting any press. Some fans don't even know that the infraction occurred during the 2012 ACWS, when the AC45s were racing. (Even the Jury admitted the AC45s are not the same as the AC72s and, therefore, what advantage could have been gained?) It really seems like the only people screaming bloody murder about the ruling is Team Oracle, and maybe a handful of devoted fans.
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  #12  
Old 09-08-2013
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

I was not referring to the decision (I think it was too harsh) but to your inference.
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Old 09-08-2013
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

Scott, it's just pure speculation, as I'm sure you know. And really, if Oracle wanted to send the message to the Jury that they did in fact decide the outcome of the Match, Oracle would make sure they got the 9 wins (exclusive of the two penalty points) before NZ secured their 9 wins.

Who knows? Maybe they still will.

But if one imagines starting off in a negative points/wins situation, isn't it possible something like that could take the momentum/desire/drive out of the penalized team? And then, doesn't that mean the penalty did actually determine the outcome of the Match?
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

Conversely the penalty could inspire Oracle so you can say it had a bearing on the outcome.
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Old 09-09-2013
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

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Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
........Paragraph 96 of the decision:
96. The Jury has no intention to impose a penalty that will determine the outcome of the Match, which should best be determined on the water and not in the Jury room. But for these mitigating factors the penalty would have been heavier.
I am all the more convinced that they would have banned Ellison and Oracle altogether, if not for essentially cancelling the race and leaving SanFran and NBC hanging by doing so.
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Old 09-09-2013
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

Minne,

I think you are correct. The full banning in this sport is not unfounded. Has been done before. no different than some of the bannings of players for full seasons, college teams from playoffs and bowl games for 2-4 yrs, loss of scholarships etc.

More may come out later from the international side of things, Maybe even US Sailing........ after this is over. Even if Oracle wins, I can see and should see harsher penalties.

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Re: AC 34 - What If?

After reading the decision I really don't understand how they could penalize the entire team. The Jury said several times they could find no evidence that anyone other than the named team members knew about the infraction. If the Jury imposed the penalties they did just to ensure Ellison was out of the game for the next Cup, they are a bunch of hypocrites.

In the decision they said the integrity and good of the sport comes before anything else, then said they don't want to decide the outcome and then penalize Oracle by putting them two races in the hole. It's a joke and it wouldn't surprise me if they did more harm than good to the sport of sailing by doing this.

Imagine you're a newbie to baseball and you decide to sit down and watch the World Series. Before the first pitch is thrown, you see one team has -2 wins. "Oh, they cheated," is the response you get when you ask why. What will your opinion of baseball be when you hear that?

I get taking away their wins in the ACWS. I get banning the participants in the infraction from the Match. But there was absolutely no evidence shown in the decision that any of the rest of the team had any knowledge of the infraction until after the fact. I think the Jury made this worse than it was and in doing so gave sailing a black eye.

If the powers-that-be don't like where Ellison has taken the AC, they should have created rules to prevent it.
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

Julie,

I'm just not buying that no one else knew. Why would lower ranking crew members mess with balance and not want the helmsman or skipper to know? I think it's just cover for why they didn't ban the entire team, which would therefore eliminate the Cup race entirely and many innocent bystanders (San Fransisco, NBC, vendors, etc) would have suffered.

If you are reading hipocracy and question integrity, you are reading it correctly. IMO.
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

If one looks at other sports, they see that teams, individuals get banned, lose past races, games etc be them temporary or or permanent.... you shrug your shoulders and move on. Professional hockey has penalized players sit in a penalty box for a period of time. That persons team is now down a player!

To put it bluntly, what happened as far as penalties go, are WELL founded through out sports! BUT as noted, many millions if not billions of dollars would have been thrown away if oracle had been given a complete ban for what happened. Hopefully ISAF does this to ALL who knew, participated etc over the next few months.

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  #20  
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Re: AC 34 - What If?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Julie,

I'm just not buying that no one else knew. Why would lower ranking crew members mess with balance and not want the helmsman or skipper to know? I think it's just cover for why they didn't ban the entire team, which would therefore eliminate the Cup race entirely and many innocent bystanders (San Fransisco, NBC, vendors, etc) would have suffered.
I agree, odds are there were higher-ups who knew and the named team members were just thrown out as an attempt to sacrifice a few so the team could carry on. But the problem I have is that the Jury decision offered no evidence anyone else was involved. They should therefore rule only on the evidence at hand. Suspicions have no place in making their decision.

If the Jury felt strongly enough that there were higher-ups who knew, they should have said so. (They kept mentioning in the decision no one seemed to know who removed the weights, and it appeared that really bothered them.) And if they felt that for the good of the sport the Cup Match needs to carry on, they could have said that too and, IMHO, that would be a pretty stand up thing to do. Don't punish the innocents.

But I really have a tough time believing Ellison had prior knowledge about the infraction. I can't believe anyone would risk hundreds of millions of dollars AND their reputation just to win some World Series matches. And then I have to ask myself just how far down the ladder does one have to be where the risk-reward balance out enough to justify the action?
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