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  #31  
Old 01-09-2014
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Re: New Safety Rules?

I may not understand some 'technical difficulties' but here on Chesapeake Bay these safety requirements are long standing for anything but 'pond' sailing under PHRF.
You can find our requirements for 4P and 5P races (bay) on our website.
Sorry other do not have these reqs. There are night time reqs also.
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  #32  
Old 01-09-2014
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Re: New Safety Rules?

OTOH, if VHFs are required to all have DSC as of 2015, that should lower the cost of DSC significantly, as it will have to be produced and implemented in the largest possible quantities, resulting in the best quantity discount, and no argument from manufacturers about whether that will make their radios five or ten dollars more expensive. It will simply be a matter of "we have to do it" and it will be up to them to be competitive about it.

Registration, pooled addresses, contact updates...I would think all of that can be worked out on the software side of the existing system. Oh wait, software...the IRS and the Healthcare folks have both gone to great lengths to prove that's not possible on this planet, haven't they?
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  #33  
Old 01-09-2014
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Re: New Safety Rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
I agree. This is what I've been considering. Until they can get something all-in-one, it seems to me that the SafeLink with AIS and a handheld VHF is a better way to go than using a PLB with GPS. As to the battery life on either device, 24 hours seems adequate because if a rescuer can't get to the MOB within that time frame, the MOB's chances of survival are very low.

A person can survive a lot longer than that in tropical water mases and other summer waters mases plus water mases tempatures are rising.

Ais. The cost for a boat owner is significate and they would not purchase them Many on the racing forum are stating having to hire a life raft or other safety equipement they state their racing their own boats is over and they will be looking to crew.

DSC for all vhf as long as non dsc vhf radios are available at less cost as in our s & r area we don't have dsc and our govt will probaly never install it either despite just about every other major non third world country has it..
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  #34  
Old 01-09-2014
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Re: New Safety Rules?

pi-
"A person can survive a lot longer than that in tropical water mases and other summer waters mases plus water mases tempatures are rising."
The issue with a MOB locator is not survival time. If you can't get the boat and the MOB back together again within a half hour or an hour at the most, the odds are that the water is so rough, the weather so adverse, the situation so grim, that the MOB won't last 24 hours in the water.
Have you done MOB drills? Have someone throw a life-size dummy in the water while the rest of the crew is down below. Wait 30 seconds, just thirty seconds, and then have everyone come up and try to locate the dummy. With any chop in the water, any swells, any low sun blinding you, you will never see the dummy again.

"Ais. The cost for a boat owner is significate and"
No really? Even the fossils like me are seeing AIS is a great way to keep clear of commercial traffic, tow strings, and other moving obstructions. $212 will buy you a top brand VHF with AIS receiver built in.

Amazon.com: Standard STD-GX2000-B 25-Watt Fixed Mount Matrix VHF Radio with AIS Display and Loudhailer (Black): Car Electronics Amazon.com: Standard STD-GX2000-B 25-Watt Fixed Mount Matrix VHF Radio with AIS Display and Loudhailer (Black): Car Electronics



That's not lunch money, but for any kind of offshore racing? That IS less than many bar bills for boat crews. It shouldn't be a stopper. And if anything, it might be another good business opportunity. Why not rent one, the same way many of us have RENTED the mandatory life rafts for major races? Again, it isn't cheap, but everyone on the boat ponies up, and the deed is done.

Disc brakes and seat belts and xenon headlights and windshield wipers all raised the price of cars. Still, I wouldn't buy one without them. And I wouldn't race one without a good bit more invested in safety equipment.

"DSC for all vhf as long as non dsc vhf radios are available at less cost as in our s & r area we don't have dsc and our govt will probaly never install it either despite"
Well, for that matter your national sailing authority has the right to waive all those expensive new safety requirements and set the bar as casually, or as low, as you prefer. That's assuming you join it, which will probably cost money, and raise your voice there. If the racers and the clubs participate and say "No" they will be heard.

But the price of all this newfangled electronics? Really is dirt cheap compared to what electronics used to be, and if it is mandated in all equipment, it should drop even further. Many racers spend more on cable tv and other frills, making it just a question of priorities. The bar and the tube? Or the safety gear? And if really is too tight, well, maybe that's why a boat is still considered an expensive luxury. Even a small old used boat.
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  #35  
Old 01-10-2014
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Re: New Safety Rules?

Have to agree with Hellosailor. Costs will be coming down and our safety equipment will need replacing at some point anyway. Might as well get the most advanced available when the time comes. If the racing regulations make that sooner rather than later, it puts us all in the same boat!
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  #36  
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Re: New Safety Rules?

hellosailor

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
pi-
"A person can survive a lot longer than that in tropical water mases and other summer waters mases plus water mases tempatures are rising."
The issue with a MOB locator is not survival time. If you can't get the boat and the MOB back together again within a half hour or an hour at the most, the odds are that the water is so rough, the weather so adverse, the situation so grim, that the MOB won't last 24 hours in the water.
Have you done MOB drills? Have someone throw a life-size dummy in the water while the rest of the crew is down below. Wait 30 seconds, just thirty seconds, and then have everyone come up and try to locate the dummy. With any chop in the water, any swells, any low sun blinding you, you will never see the dummy again.

"Ais. The cost for a boat owner is significate and"
No really? Even the fossils like me are seeing AIS is a great way to keep clear of commercial traffic, tow strings, and other moving obstructions. $212 will buy you a top brand VHF with AIS receiver built in.

Amazon.com: Standard STD-GX2000-B 25-Watt Fixed Mount Matrix VHF Radio with AIS Display and Loudhailer (Black): Car Electronics

That's not lunch money, but for any kind of offshore racing? That IS less than many bar bills for boat crews. It shouldn't be a stopper. And if anything, it might be another good business opportunity. Why not rent one, the same way many of us have RENTED the mandatory life rafts for major races? Again, it isn't cheap, but everyone on the boat ponies up, and the deed is done.

Disc brakes and seat belts and xenon headlights and windshield wipers all raised the price of cars. Still, I wouldn't buy one without them. And I wouldn't race one without a good bit more invested in safety equipment.

"DSC for all vhf as long as non dsc vhf radios are available at less cost as in our s & r area we don't have dsc and our govt will probaly never install it either despite"
Well, for that matter your national sailing authority has the right to waive all those expensive new safety requirements and set the bar as casually, or as low, as you prefer. That's assuming you join it, which will probably cost money, and raise your voice there. If the racers and the clubs participate and say "No" they will be heard.

But the price of all this newfangled electronics? Really is dirt cheap compared to what electronics used to be, and if it is mandated in all equipment, it should drop even further. Many racers spend more on cable tv and other frills, making it just a question of priorities. The bar and the tube? Or the safety gear? And if really is too tight, well, maybe that's why a boat is still considered an expensive luxury. Even a small old used boat.
Misleading Info


Quote from the descriptive website Amazon
$212 •AIS Display (receiver input required)

"The issue with a MOB locator is not survival time. If you can't get the boat and the MOB back together again within a half hour or an hour at the most, the odds are that the water is so rough, the weather so adverse, the situation so grim, that the MOB won't last 24 hours in the water.
"

What rubbish.

So the sea state suddenly increases the moment a person goes overboard? Like Hell.

If seen or heard at the time and the mark or manover board button is hit on the gps on board and the man over board pole is lauched with a parachute anchor so the person can swim to untill the vessel returns, plus he would probably have as I do water proof mini flares attached or in his inflatable life jacket for firing. Mini pack 6 flares. Dirt Cheap. If the boat does not still see him he can fire a flare at the sails hopefully putting them on fire. Does not matter how adverse the sea state is providing he has the correct jacket and the water tempature is warm. It has been known for a person to survive 96 hrs in the water although dehydrated and severe body swelling from salt water intake into his system.

Tell your story on a thread "costs entering a off shore race Cat 1 regs" and see how many positive replies you get in your area. Most of our vessels comply with Cat 1 or 2 as we have had to for the past 30 years.

Quote correct info and prices all the time now.
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  #37  
Old 01-10-2014
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Re: New Safety Rules?

"Misleading Info
...$212 •AIS Display (receiver input required)"

My bad, I didn't read past the headline. If you've been racing offshore for 20-30 years then you remember paying $500 or $1000 for a LORAN before GPS, and you remember what GPS used to cost. Point being, AIS in one way or another is still cheap enough to afford. $300-400? USB to your laptop or chartplotter accessory, so many ways to do it.

"What rubbish. ...
So the sea state suddenly increases the moment a person goes overboard? Like Hell."
You know very well no one said that, you're just looking to argue. The fairly obvious point is that if you can't recover a MOB in 1/2 hour or less, there's something else going on, probably a weather condition with high winds and waves making it impossible for you to see them or maneuver to them. And for many of us, that means storms and that means cold weather and water. Even if the only problem is wind, you are no doubt aware that the ORC recommended spray hoods a number of years ago after finding that windblown spray is enough to drown a MOB in the water.
I'll stick by it: If you can't recover a MOB in 1/2 hour or less, it really doesn't matter if the locator intended for use by your own vessel runs more than 24 hours. With 24 hours of separation you have no idea where they are or might be, and the whole concept of "vessel" recovery needs to shift to a wider one of SAR and EPIRB. And, statistically, to body recovery not MOB rescue.

" Mini pack 6 flares. Dirt Cheap. "
Yes, and virtually non-existant in the US market because it is so easy to use the pen launcher as a zip gun, so they're usually treated as firearms and simply not sold in most of the chandleries.

"It has been known for a person to survive 96 hrs in the water although..."
Yes it has. If you go overboard in bath water. For those of us who are more often found in waters from 70F to 40F, the survival times are considerably shorter.

Temp_F___C____Unconcious______Dead
40–50° 3.3–10°; 30 – 60 minutes; 1 – 3 hours
50–60° 10–15.6°; 1 – 2 hours; 1 – 6 hours
60–70° 15.6–21.1°; 2 – 7 hours; 2 – 40 hours

"Quote correct info and prices all the time now. "
I tried, and that's more than you've done. You're only interest appears to be *tching about the extra expenses. Someone who was interested in being helpful might at least try to post prices and numbers, rather than simply *tch about them being wrong.

If you can campaign a Cat1 racing boat for 20 years, you can afford to upgrade your VHF or chartplotter to an AIS system.
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Smile Re: New Safety Rules?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"Misleading Info
...$212 •AIS Display (receiver input required)"

My bad, I didn't read past the headline. If you've been racing offshore for 20-30 years then you remember paying $500 or $1000 for a LORAN before GPS, and you remember what GPS used to cost. Point being, AIS in one way or another is still cheap enough to afford. $300-400? USB to your laptop or chartplotter accessory, so many ways to do it.

My GPS's are GARMIN hand held. GPS 20 - 30 years old are non usable. they became redundant, at least my did with the turn into the 21st century. An oversight in the programming or Something.

"What rubbish. ...
So the sea state suddenly increases the moment a person goes overboard? Like Hell."
You know very well no one said that, you're just looking to argue. The fairly obvious point is that if you can't recover a MOB in 1/2 hour or less, there's something else going on, probably a weather condition with high winds and waves making it impossible for you to see them or maneuver to them. And for many of us, that means storms and that means cold weather and water. Even if the only problem is wind, you are no doubt aware that the ORC recommended spray hoods a number of years ago after finding that windblown spray is enough to drown a MOB in the water.
I'll stick by it: If you can't recover a MOB in 1/2 hour or less, it really doesn't matter if the locator intended for use by your own vessel runs more than 24 hours. With 24 hours of separation you have no idea where they are or might be, and the whole concept of "vessel" recovery needs to shift to a wider one of SAR and EPIRB. And, statistically, to body recovery not MOB rescue.


Well the message is not to crew with you as skipper if you are only prepared to spend 30 minutes in S & R real exercise. You have not mentioned the man over board pole with a drogue, plus the life rings which now can have drogues as well, usually 2. Also tossed as close as possible in the direct of the person in the water and possibly cockpit cushions as many as possible, and squabs which a prudent skipper would authorise making a visible trail as well, thus indicating you are in the vicinity of the person you are looking for and extra floatation for the MOB. Plus giving him confidence mental enthusiasm hope he has been noticed he is MOB. THIS makes a big difference in the mental state of a person to survive. The man over board poll is significally high and stands vertically with a orange flag. Gives a direction point for the person to swim to knowing the boat will be making for that position and probably in stormy conditions assisting to make sure it is vertical and not wind swept flat The boat with it's MOB LAT & Long reciprocal waypoint would probably be within in a reasonable distance.


" Mini pack 6 flares. Dirt Cheap. "
Yes, and virtually non-existant in the US market because it is so easy to use the pen launcher as a zip gun, so they're usually treated as firearms and simply not sold in most of the chandleries.


The US is small in planet cruising destinations that don't have that strict interpretation. They don't shoot bullets and it surprises me they would be classified as a gun. Can you quote the particular law wording to substantiate this. Where we are they are classified as a flare and not a bullet.

"It has been known for a person to survive 96 hrs in the water although..."
Yes it has. If you go overboard in bath water. For those of us who are more often found in waters from 70F to 40F, the survival times are considerably shorter.
Absolute rubbish. trying to pick an argument to prove your point. The stats are not hard fast for every person. My statement was it has been known and factual. Google it.

Temp_F___C____Unconcious______Dead
40–50° 3.3–10°; 30 – 60 minutes; 1 – 3 hours
50–60° 10–15.6°; 1 – 2 hours; 1 – 6 hours
60–70° 15.6–21.1°; 2 – 7 hours; 2 – 40 hours

"Quote correct info and prices all the time now. "
I tried, and that's more than you've done. You're only interest appears to be *tching about the extra expenses. Someone who was interested in being helpful might at least try to post prices and numbers, rather than simply *tch about them being wrong.

If you can campaign a Cat1 racing boat for 20 years, you can afford to upgrade your VHF or chartplotter to an AIS system.
We are not talking about myself we are talking about boat owners sometimes 60 that want to enter races but with the entry fee, rating certificate and other equipment expenses in your area are stating that they have reached their max budget to race and are looking to crew. I have read them recently re these regs on other sights so I don't have to quote them. Want proof .Google the question.


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  #39  
Old 01-11-2014
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Re: New Safety Rules?

pi, do you really need a better translator? Because you keep imagining things I haven't said and attributing them to me.

"GPS 20 - 30 years old are non usable. they became redundant, at least my did with the turn into the 21st century. An oversight in the programming or Something."
You say "redundant" but it sounds like you mean "obsolete". Redundant means they can be used as spares. A programming error--a calendar rollover error--did exist in many units and was resolved so they can still be used with no problem. I know that because I've also got an old handheld. It doesn't display charts, but it charts positions just as well as it ever did.
But I never said anyone was, or had to be, using old GPSes. I only mentioned how expensive they used to be, but somehow, they were affordable because they were "necessary" for racing.

"Well the message is not to crew with you as skipper if you are only prepared to spend 30 minutes in S & R real exercise. "
I wouldn't let you crew with me, because you seem to get everything backwards. I said a MOB should be recoverable within 30 minutes, and I didn't say anything about how long I was willing to remain on station searching for one.
By naval tradition, sailors shoot craps and play poker and they don't settle up until payday. That's intentional, so that if you fall overboard the rest of the crew has good reason to come back and keep looking for you. "Man Overboard!" Damn, and he owes me fifty bucks, we'd better find him.

"You have not mentioned the man over board pole with a drogue,"
Nope. Didn't mention many things that weren't the OP's question. If the MOB is conscious he can use a miniVHF and if he's inshore he can use a cell phone. And if it is daylight he can use a signal mirror. There are many things the OP didn't ask and none of us mentioned because they're outside the scope of "MOB locator".

"The US is small in planet cruising destinations that don't have that strict interpretation."
Yes it is. And then again, a majority of the forum members are US-based, as is the forum itself.

"They [pencil flares] don't shoot bullets "
The original ones shot pistol cartridges with no problem. When you figure out what caliber cartridge yours uses, I hope you still won't have a clue as to what cartridges fit in it.

"and it surprises me they would be classified as a gun. Can you quote the particular law wording to substantiate this." A particular law? Sure, but all laws are local. In most of the civilized world, there are laws defining "firearm" for the purpose of regulating them. Whatever laws regulate firearms in your venue, you go look at the definitions section of those laws. "Firearm" is usually defined as any device that uses any form of "stored energy" to move a "projectile" of any type, and the definition is usually in the broadest possible terms, so as to include spring guns, compressed air guns, guns using an explosive propellant, rubber slings, or anything else. Flare guns are still GUNS. There are usually provisions in the laws that also exclude them from firearm laws as long as they are on boats, or being transported to or from boats, but the laws still class them as GUNS first. Take your pencil flares to Bermuda, and you'll still have to declare them as firearms.

"We are not talking about myself we are talking about boat owners sometimes 60 that want to enter races but ... they have reached their max budget to race and are looking to crew. ...Want proof .Google the question."
Racers have always complained about how expensive it is to race. We pass the hat to rent an offshore life raft and we pass the hat to cover major entry fees as well. Lots of boats and crews do that, and have done that for many years. Not everyone has Larry Ellison's budget and even in his league, yes, there are complaints and even lawsuits about how expensive racing has become and how to keep the costs down.
Google the question? And what question would that be? No doubt answered on answers.com but every bozo on the bus, but that doesn't mean the answers are correct or relevant.

Racing costs money. That's why it is a luxury and, yes, an elitist sport much as polo is. Safety costs money too. Same thing if you want to sit down and play poker. Either you ante up, or you don't play. Don't like the stakes? Then find a low-stakes game.

The facts remain the same: Given all the costs of campaigning an offshore racing boat, the extras for this safety equipment will cost FAR LESS than the costs of any SAR response. If a fleet of 50 boats spends $1000 each on new equipment mandates, that's still less than the cost of one SAR response for one MOB in one event.
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Old 01-12-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
pi, do you really need a better translator? Because you keep imagining things I haven't said and attributing them to me.

"GPS 20 - 30 years old are non usable. they became redundant, at least my did with the turn into the 21st century. An oversight in the programming or Something."
You say "redundant" but it sounds like you mean "obsolete". Redundant means they can be used as spares. A programming error--a calendar rollover error--did exist in many units and was resolved so they can still be used with no problem. I know that because I've also got an old handheld. It doesn't display charts, but it charts positions just as well as it ever did.
But I never said anyone was, or had to be, using old GPSes. I only mentioned how expensive they used to be, but somehow, they were affordable because they were "necessary" for racing.

"Well the message is not to crew with you as skipper if you are only prepared to spend 30 minutes in S & R real exercise. "
I wouldn't let you crew with me, because you seem to get everything backwards. I said a MOB should be recoverable within 30 minutes, and I didn't say anything about how long I was willing to remain on station searching for one.
By naval tradition, sailors shoot craps and play poker and they don't settle up until payday. That's intentional, so that if you fall overboard the rest of the crew has good reason to come back and keep looking for you. "Man Overboard!" Damn, and he owes me fifty bucks, we'd better find him.

"You have not mentioned the man over board pole with a drogue,"
Nope. Didn't mention many things that weren't the OP's question. If the MOB is conscious he can use a miniVHF and if he's inshore he can use a cell phone. And if it is daylight he can use a signal mirror. There are many things the OP didn't ask and none of us mentioned because they're outside the scope of "MOB locator".

"The US is small in planet cruising destinations that don't have that strict interpretation."
Yes it is. And then again, a majority of the forum members are US-based, as is the forum itself.

"They [pencil flares] don't shoot bullets "
The original ones shot pistol cartridges with no problem. When you figure out what caliber cartridge yours uses, I hope you still won't have a clue as to what cartridges fit in it.

"and it surprises me they would be classified as a gun. Can you quote the particular law wording to substantiate this." A particular law? Sure, but all laws are local. In most of the civilized world, there are laws defining "firearm" for the purpose of regulating them. Whatever laws regulate firearms in your venue, you go look at the definitions section of those laws. "Firearm" is usually defined as any device that uses any form of "stored energy" to move a "projectile" of any type, and the definition is usually in the broadest possible terms, so as to include spring guns, compressed air guns, guns using an explosive propellant, rubber slings, or anything else. Flare guns are still GUNS. There are usually provisions in the laws that also exclude them from firearm laws as long as they are on boats, or being transported to or from boats, but the laws still class them as GUNS first. Take your pencil flares to Bermuda, and you'll still have to declare them as firearms.

"We are not talking about myself we are talking about boat owners sometimes 60 that want to enter races but ... they have reached their max budget to race and are looking to crew. ...Want proof .Google the question."
Racers have always complained about how expensive it is to race. We pass the hat to rent an offshore life raft and we pass the hat to cover major entry fees as well. Lots of boats and crews do that, and have done that for many years. Not everyone has Larry Ellison's budget and even in his league, yes, there are complaints and even lawsuits about how expensive racing has become and how to keep the costs down.
Google the question? And what question would that be? No doubt answered on answers.com but every bozo on the bus, but that doesn't mean the answers are correct or relevant.

Racing costs money. That's why it is a luxury and, yes, an elitist sport much as polo is. Safety costs money too. Same thing if you want to sit down and play poker. Either you ante up, or you don't play. Don't like the stakes? Then find a low-stakes game.

The facts remain the same: Given all the costs of campaigning an offshore racing boat, the extras for this safety equipment will cost FAR LESS than the costs of any SAR response. If a fleet of 50 boats spends $1000 each on new equipment mandates, that's still less than the cost of one SAR response for one MOB in one event.
Way off beam again. You contradict yourself just about on every page.

You even hint and suggest you can't afford to pay the cost and suggest the club should buy the stuff to rent free to members then at start of the following season sell them at discounted prices to members.

With respect is this you trying to sell an idea so you can buy the stuff at reduced prices.

Re the costs some say 20,000 dollors to be able to race 12 months from now.

You seem to have not retained or related to the postings messages and arguments / comments from page 2

I post the link for your re reading including your previous postings and confused thinking then and since.

New Safety Rules?


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