SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Non-racer etiquette?

11K views 98 replies 34 participants last post by  jackdale 
#1 ·
Disclaimer: I don't race, know next to nothing about it...

We were approaching Baynes Channel and Cardboro Point south of Sidney on Saturday under power and we noticed about 10 or 15 sailboats headed towards us with spinnakers flying. I figured we were about to motor straight into a regatta or race out of Cadboro Bay. It looked like they were using the V29 lateral buoy off Johnstone reef as their turn point and sure enough, just as we passed it about 100 meters away, three boats doused their spinnakers and came racing around the marker pretty much on a collision course with us.

I really had no idea what the etiquette was in these situations other than the knowledge they had the right of way — and that I didn't want to ruin anyone's race. So I went hard to starboard and pointed at the stern of the last of three boats and watched them cross my bow meters away. Then we turned back onto our original course and continued to dodge the rest of the oncoming boats that hadn't made the turn yet. One of the original three decided to short tack and they came screaming back across our stern, the sides covered in rail meat. They tacked back and forth generally on our course off our stern and as they turned into Baynes channel they weren't that far behind us. Just goes to show sailing in good wind can be faster than motoring.:)

I altered course one more time as I turned into Baynes Channel and slowed down to allow the first two boats who were again on a collision course to slip through ahead of us. After that there was plenty of room in the Channel and we were passed by one more boat before we took off to wards Trial Island and they all head back to Oak Bay.

Essentially I motored right through the middle of their race course, but I am pretty sure it wasn't' an "official" race and really, there was nothing else I could do unless I was willing to head back out into Haro Strait and go around Discovery Islands. I am pretty sure I didn't screw with anyone's race although I may have made a skipper a bit more nervous than usual.

Did I do enough? Did I do too much?
 
See less See more
#2 ·
No worries..

I'm sure the fleet felt it was an 'Official' race, the RVic runs a lot of races and I wouldn't be surprised if races were organized out of Oak Bay.

In any event, you gave way and did you best to avoid messing anyone up. That's about all you could do. The racers are accustomed to avoiding obstacles (which, according to the rules, you were).. the one thing I might suggest is to not make a lot of sudden moves - i.e. a racer may have decided to avoid you and plans for your current speed and heading. if you suddenly change either of those you'll throw off their calculations and may create a new risk of collision.
 
#5 · (Edited)
the one thing I might suggest is to not make a lot of sudden moves - i.e. a racer may have decided to avoid you and plans for your current speed and heading. if you suddenly change either of those you'll throw off their calculations and may create a new risk of collision.
As Jack said, as the give-way vessel on a collision course, you have to "take early and substantial action to keep well clear". It sounds like the OP handled the situation well to me.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Racing boats are subject to colregs just like everyone else. It is matter of courtesy that non-racing boats try to avoid interfering with the race.

You were a power driven vessel. As such you were a give way vessel to the sailing vessels. They have the obligation of maintain course and speed (assuming it is safe to do so).

Racers are used to being in close proximity with other vessels.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nhsail and rnixon
#4 ·
I really had no idea what the etiquette was in these situations other than the knowledge they had the right of way

Did I do enough? Did I do too much?
No! They did NOT have the right of way!

They can not change course onto a collision course and put you in danger, no matter that you are under power.

Also you are in a channel.

Too many times racing boats think they own the bay over recreational boaters. Just not true!

If race boats are going faster than you, on erratic courses, you are fine to keep a steady course at a safe speed and let them manoeuvre around you.

:)

Mark
 
#44 ·
I got into a HUGE debate on this exact issue in another thread a few years ago. It's just a matter of time before this exact scenario ends up in court.

Look at Juno v. Endeavor. The main summary of the case is entitled "Yacht Racers Contract Out of COLREGS" [emphasis mine].

Wrap your head around that and tell me the line isn't fuzzy - and ripe for litigation.

It will be interesting to watch.
 
#6 ·
I own a boat and race a good bit.
I think you did just fine.

Perhaps you could have spun about real fast motoring back the way you came until all boats were clear then get back on your way. But perhaps not. That is the only thing i can think of that you did not do. I would probably have done what you did.

If you can stay away from them give them room.
If you are in a channel and can't get out of it do what you can.

If you cant get away from each other the racing boat may ask you to move to a certain position. If what he said was reasonable I would probably do it (if he was polite).
 
#7 ·
Racer and daysailer here (in a heavily-trafficked area). I'm overjoyed of other boats:
1) Stay away from marks
2) Do not be upwind of nearby boats
3) Act reasonably predictable
4) Try to stay in general away from clusters of racing boats
5) If you're putting up a wake, cross astern

(These are in priority order, BTW.)

As a vessel under power whose maneuverability us not restricted, you are required to maneuver to avoid vessels under sail, and vessels under sail are required to not make this difficult for you. Honestly if that's all you do, you're better than most of the folks I encounter, and I'd give you a friendly wave. :)
 
#9 ·
My feeling is that we're reasonable, as a courtesy, it's nice to stay out of race courses. If you have to traverse one then just be as predictable as possible. Maintain a steady speed and course, and get out of the area as quickly as reasonable. But racers are boaters as well, and we know we don't own the water.

By preference, cross someone's stern, and on the leeward side if possible.

And remember close to you may not be the same as close to a racer. So if you feel uncomfortable act to avoid a collision and don't wait on them. Cruisers don't, and shouldn't, get as close to other boats as racers do, but some racers don't allow for as large an exclusion zone around non-racers as maybe we should.
 
#10 ·
Think OP did just fine. Think we should try to do what's necessary so our being there doesn't effect outcome of the race. So even when sailing try to not wind shadow a racer or cause him to change course. Even if I'm not burdened.
However think it is very imprudent and almost always unnecessary for a race course to involve a trafficked channel. It's not that hard for the committee boat to place buoys and irresponsible to endanger racers and other traffic. Seeing them put small kids in skiffs and have them going through channels just scares me.
 
#11 ·
However think it is very imprudent and almost always unnecessary for a race course to involve a trafficked channel. It's not that hard for the committee boat to place buoys and irresponsible to endanger racers and other traffic. Seeing them put small kids in skiffs and have them going through channels just scares me.
Baynes Channel is usually used by recreational traffic only. Commercial traffic uses Haro Strait to the East.

It is quite common for racers to use aid to navigation as course markers.

Sidney Channel is the venue for Sidney North Saanich YC races every Satyrday morning. They often use buoy U2 as a marker.
 
#12 · (Edited)
FWIW, our races are often run in, across and around a busy shipping channel.. and around shipping channel piles which are far worse! (dismastings are common).

Our sailing instructions specify that the channel automatically becomes a "continuing obstruction" whenever there's a ship in it and you risk disqualification if you enter it regardless. It might appear annoying but it can kinda add to the challenge because by adjusting your speed and tactical position if you see a ship coming, you can gain a pretty amazing lead over your opponents by getting across the channel before they do. After so many years, I think most of the ship-masters are used to us now... hitting the brakes at the last second, whilst they glide by.

Who would have guessed an AIS receiver could be such an important tactical tool in a racer's arsenal?!? ;)
 
#13 · (Edited)
Was talking in general not specific. Understand some of the challenges racers face and greatly enjoyed racing. Understand using channel markers is a common occurance and often the logical choice. In fact in the past my yacht club commonly used the channel entrance marker and a marker off a set of coastal rocks. Never had a second thought about that and it was very rare we were an issue to traffic or traffic to us. Loved PHRF racing for many years.Racing is a great way to get kids involved in sailing. Very pro racing for many reasons. Last summer got our 6 y.o. Grandson involved with the local yacht club in his town. Also think their technology trickles down to us cruisers.
Still in my past local area have seen expanses of suitable water not used but rather channel markers used. Apparently due to ease not necessity. That harbor is of mixed commercial (fishing/ferries/ whale watch/ day fishing ) and recreational use but no shipping. Still those vessels maybe restricted in navigation and ability to stop. Was just speaking to that and concern for the kids safety. Seen a lot of full throttle go fasts do hole shots right as they are leaving the no wake zone or run in on plane. They are wrong to do this but still not an uncommon practice. If the kids are even near the channel concerned for them in little skiffs on light air days with no way to prevent getting severely waked or worse. Think this is a different thing then adults in sailing auxiliaries with more options and better processing skills. Very much don't want to suggest doing anything that in any way impedes expansion of involvement in racing. Hope prior post is not interpreted that way. Understand my prior post was poorly worded. In my brain was thinking of kids in skiffs not the more common beercan race. Would note at present in that harbor the harbor master was fired by the town, the race committee replaced, as well as new commodore elected. Things are much better.
 
#16 ·
.....just as we passed it about 100 meters away, three boats doused their spinnakers and came racing around the marker pretty much on a collision course with us....
Overall, it sounds like you did great. This is where the race fleet seems to have failed. Just because it's a marker on a race, does not give them the right to ignore their stand on requirement.

On the other hand, they may have felt very comfortable that there wasn't going to be a collision hazard. Race boats will sail closer to other boats than most find comfortable. For that matter, if they were turning around an ATN, was there sufficient water depth in the direction they were standing on, if they didn't turn? This is where the colregs get fuzzy, and just say that everyone is responsible to avoid collision regardless of stand on rules. A stand on vessel isn't expected to maintain course, if such course is not navigable.
 
#18 ·
We had a guy actually get in a collision with a Tug during a Harbor race, thought he had right of way. Imagine that. Tug had signaled properly and was backing up, talk about limited maneuverability. Race of no the Sailing vessel only has rights before changing course and within the maneuverability of other vessels. There's only so much you can do much less be expected to do, sounds like the OP did more than required. We regularly dodge anchored Boats with people in the water while racing its not a closed course.
 
#22 · (Edited)
There is no such thing as an unofficial race. For every race there is a pickle dish and bragging rights awaiting the winner back at the yacht club. Racers take every race seriously and want you to "stay the hell out of their way," but to get into the way of their competitors or at least block their competitors wind for a bit.

It sounds like you did the right thing being conscious of the racers and tried to lessen the impact of your presence. You should stay as far away as possible from any race or at least 5 boat lengths if you have your sails up, because closer than that can cause a wind shadow.

Another reason to stay as far away as possible is for your comfort. What you consider adequate room and a racer does is very different. A "Port Tacker" racer will think of nothing of bearing down on a Starboard Tacker at full speed aiming right towards the middle of the right away boat. Then when one boat length away, cracking off while the crew eases the sails, miss the stern by 3 feet which feels and looks like 3 inches, then coming back to a close reach while the crews bring the sails back in. It is absolutely exhilarating if you are on the racing boat. It would be absolutely terrifying if you were out daysailing as a Starboard Tacker through the middle of a race.

Oops see that the subject of why not sail through the race has been well covered.
 
#26 ·
There is no such thing as an unofficial race. For every race there is a pickle dish and bragging rights awaiting the winner back at the yacht club. Racers take every race seriously and want you to "stay the hell out of their way," but to get into the way of their competitors or at least block their competitors wind for a bit.

It sounds like you did the right thing being conscious of the racers and tried to lessen the impact of your presence. You should stay as far away as possible from any race or at least 5 boat lengths if you have your sails up, because closer than that can cause a wind shadow.

Another reason to stay as far away as possible is for your comfort. What you consider adequate room and a racer does is very different. A "Port Tacker" racer will think of nothing of bearing down on a Starboard Tacker at full speed aiming right towards the middle of the right away boat. Then when one boat length away, cracking off while the crew eases the sails, miss the stern by 3 feet which feels and looks like 3 inches, then coming back to a close reach while the crews bring the sails back in. It is absolutely exhilarating if you are on the racing boat. It would be absolutely terrifying if you were out daysailing as a Starboard Tacker through the middle of a race.
I did one of those last night. When I headed back up I had to use what momentum I had to just barely carry past the mark. Close but fun. What the crew calls an "owners move"
 
#24 ·
Not to mention that crossing that close will likely cause a panicked over-reaction that could lead to an issue that wouldn't have otherwise happened.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MarkofSeaLife
#25 ·
When we bought our boat in 1998, having had a C25 for 13 years before that, and only raced once on our former C22, I knew nothing about racing. But I sailed enough on SF Bay to see where the racing boats were going and stayed as far away as I could from marks. It should be pretty obvious to anyone who has spent any time behind the helm of a cruising boat where those marks are: all of sudden LOTS of boats are heading for the SAME spot! One simply does not put themselves in that position to begin with. I know, I know, easier said than done, but really, think about it. You've learned a valuable lesson, did mostly the right things and learned something.

When faced with a bunch of spinnakers coming at me, I either get out of the way or sail through them, not so hard.

You might want to consider trying a race or two, on your boat or someone else's, and find out what happens on a race boat. Most of them are Corinthians and care very much about knowing and using the rules to avoid collisions. It only looks like bumper cars to those who haven't tried racing.

Good luck.
 
#28 ·
I was wondering if radio contact was attempted? and also wonder if that's not the first course of action? I'm just trying to learn as I go here. I just got to go out for my first race, crewing on a dock mates J-32, oh my lord what a ton of fun!! Cruiser and race class on the same course. A very fast 24' trimaran and couple of other fast racer class boat's. I learned a lot, had a great time of it and met some of the best folks! These guys are very serious about racing, one of them is a retired U.S. Navy Admiral, he's a serious man about his boat! I stay out of their way when I'm on my own boat, it matter's not to me who has right of way.
 
#29 ·
Interesting topic - and I agree that the OP did a great job. Good advice from all. I was sitting at the dock on a friends boat when his wife said "Oh look, there's XXX (name not used - he was sailing by on his boat). He's such a jerk". I was surprised to see that the boat she refering to was a boat I have raced on, and I really liked the skipper. It turns out that at some point during the Wednesday Night Races, XXX had come close to my friends boat. My friend was not racing. His wife was really upset about how close he came. Now I, obviously, don't know how close that was, but the point is that people really do have different perspectives to how close it is appropriate to get.

Just to clarify: I often sail near the racers (especially on Wednesday Night Races) because I like to watch the racing and the pretty-colored-sails. I just make sure that I stay well out of the way.
 
#33 ·
No idea, some Mod70 inshore race.

The modern era of drones is allowing far better pictures of this type of thing than ever before. I need to rewatch it, but I think there was a cross in the A-Cat worlds that was captured... There was no visible space between the two boats.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top