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  #1  
Old 02-01-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

We are about to launch a new 42 footer (new long keel wooden hull with high tech rig for cruising and IRC racing ... the 8m class). We are stepping up from much smaller boats but have raced for many years.

We are having a single double ended Spinn pole and two sets of sheets & guys. i.e. there will always be both a lazy sheet and a lazy guy attached.

This represents a hole in my experience that I need to fill! Why do I need two sets of sheets/guys? What sheet/guy clew/tack fittings do I need for this set up? (This is a unique boat that we are specifying ourselves, although faithful to the original design, albeit with the help of sparmakers, sailmakers etc ... not the designer who died in 1954!). Maybe I''m a bit thick, but I need some detailed coaching in setting up (and using) this double sheet system.

Could someone walk me through a jibe?!

Thanks.
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Old 02-01-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

Generally when you have sheets and guys the boat is intended for a dip pole jibe. You can still use sheets and guys with an end for end but that is typically only done in heavy air on a boat that would normally be end for ended. I will talk through both.

Starting with a dip pole jibe, a dip pole jibe generally takes a lot of people to do well. You need a minimum crew of seven to do a dip pole smoothly on a boat the size of an 8 meter. Starting from the bow, you need a foredeck person at the stem, a mast person, a pit person, a spin trimmer on starboard and a spin trimmer on port, a mainsail trimmer and a helmsman.

As the jibe begins the foredeck person grabs the lazy guy and walks to the bow. The mast man raises the mast end of the pole up the track as to a premarked point that will allow the pole to swing across the deck just above the bow pulpit. The pit person eases the pole lift to a premarked point that will allow the pole to swing across the deck just above the bow pulpit. The mainsail trimmer brings the mainsail to the centerline and holds it there. The original windward spinacker trimmer tensions the spin sheet and then eases the guy, saying "guy blown". The mast man swings the pole in toward the centerline where the foredeck person blows the old guy and inserts the new guy in the jaws, relatches the pole pin, and then swings the pole to the new windward, saying ''Made''. At which point the mast person lowers the pole on the mast to its previous position, the new windward trimmer tensions the guy and eases the sheet, and the pit person raises the pole lift to its original position. When the sail is set and flying the new spin trimmer says,''flying'', so the mainsail trimmer knows to let the mainsail out and so that the helmsman knows that the boat can be turned up to windward.

That is a dip pole jibe.

End for ending with lazy guy allows the pole to be made before the guy is tensioned which allows end for ending on bigger boats or on windier days. End for ending with a lazy guy takes five people on a boat the size of an 8 meter. A foredeck person, a port and starboard spin trimmer, a mainsail trimmer and a helmsman. At the beginning of a jibe the foredeck person takes the lazy guy and stands at the mast, and if necessary lowers the pole end to within reach. The former weather trimmer tensions the sheet and eases the guy. The foredeck person releases the pole from the mast. The mainsail trimmer brings the main to the centerline and holds it there. The foredeck person puts the lazy guy in the jaws of the pole and walks the pole out to the new windward. The foredeck person then removes the previously used guy from the new inboard end of the pole and puts the pole on the mast, saying ''Made''. At that point the new guy is tensioned and the former sheet eased. The sheet trimmer then says''flying'', so the mainsail trimmer knows to let the mainsail out and so that the helmsman knows that the boat can be turned up to windward.

A couple additional points, The guy should be heavier than the sheets and have a donut and chafe gear at the jaws. The sheets should have an extra large bail so that the lazy guy can be snapped into that bail. In lighter air the guy can be removed to reduce the weight on the guy and the guy can be snapped to the sheet to act as twings.

I really love 8 meters and I am delighted to hear that you are building a replica. I am trying to remember who died in 1954. I am guessing Clinton Crane because I think that L. Francis Herreshoff and Starling Burgess died a few years later. Who designed your boat and is she a replica of "Cayuga" by any chance?

Jeff
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Old 02-01-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

Rereading your original post I am confused that you say that it is a "long keel wooden hull....8 meter." 8 Meters were generally fin keels with attached or skeg hung rudders. Could you please elaborate?

Jeff
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Old 02-01-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

Essentially, double sheets & guys get used because with such a big boat, pole and spinnaker, you don''t want anything to get out of control and kill someone.
Using lazy guys and sheets enables you to do an end-for-end or a dip pole gybe, as conditions and crew skills warrant.
To dip-pole gybe, the lazy guy is eased so the bowman can slip it into the pole jaws on the new side, when its time. The pole (and guy) are eased forward and the jaw disengaged from the old guy. (Here is where the argument comes about rigging the pole jaws up (so that opening them releases the pole from the guy when you pull down on it) or jaws down, because you want the strength of the cast part of the fitting at the top, where the most strain is; you open the jaw and lift the pole off so it doesn''t just drop and bean somebody. Most boats I''ve sailed on go with the jaws down.) While the guy and pole are being eased forward so the bowman can grab the end of the pole, the new sheet can be tightened a touch to help keep the chute full without precluding the pole''s going forward. The bowman grabs the end of the pole, in any case, while another crew lowers the topping lift to the pre-marked point that allows the pole to pass beneath the forestay. The bowman slaps the new guy into the jaws, calls "made" or words to that effect so the trimmer knows he can haul on the new guy and new sheet, and there you are. A smart bowman then adjusts the lazy guy and sheet to positions so they''re ready to gybe back again. An end-for-end gybe works similarly, except for not having to coordinate the timing of the topping lift, and not calling "made" until the pole is re-attached to the mast fitting. Hope this helps. There are a bunch of books that outline this in better detail or with differing options. Borders or Barnes & Noble would be good sources.
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Double Spinn Sheets

Paul, that was an interesting post with regard to the pole jaw direction. I have always suspected that there are regional differences in how things are done. Here on the east coast of the US I have never sailed on a boat that sailed with the jaw opening down. Most of the boats that I have sailed on are set so their bridles only work with the jaws up. This is done to make it easier to keep the guy in the jaws and make it easier to get the pole on the mast. Where do you sail?

Jeff
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Old 02-02-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

Jeff: I''ve never sailed on a boat that used a pole with the jaws down.That is not saying it can''t be done!
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Old 02-05-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

For Jeff H

I am talking about a Classic 8 and these were/are traditional long keels ... well a classic ''metre'' boat shape, so like a small classic 12. Bear in mind the Straight 8s are around 47'' LOA and only abt 8'' in the beam. (Ours is actually an 8CR - cruiser racer - only 42'' LOA and infact a yawl - but still measures as an 8 - don''t ask !)

I''m sure the modern 8''s that are dry sailed and travel the world are again smaller versions of modern 12''s, so that is where you get the fin and skeg idea. If you want to find out about classic 8''s you should look at the Finnish 8 metre association site which is in English, mostly, and v informative.

Thanks all, for the double guy and sheet dissertations - extremely useful and your efforts much appreciated. You have added plenty of useful detail.

The boat is not a reproduction but a rebuilt original! Meaning the lead keel and wooden keelsom remain original, and the shape comes from the original hull. (The hull was jacked back to designed shape with the aid of laser levellers etc., and the 120 laminated new ribs could then be shaped into the old planking before it was discarded and replanked. The designer was Knud Reimers (Danish but mostly worked in Sweden. It may have been after 1954 that he died, but it was soon after the boat was launched in 1954. He designed many 8 metres and a few of them were CRs
The 8 Metre Cruiser/Racer was something of a rarity, as far as I know only about 20 were built world-wide and then mostly by McGruer in Scotland. Ours is unusual in that she is rigged as a Yawl with a cutter foretriangle. Only one other Yawl was built and that was Reimersí own boat, Hazard III, that he sailed in the USA and hence was optimised to the American Rule. Our boat was optimised to the RORC rule and built in Dun Loghaire, Ireland

I''ve just discovered you can''t paste pictures here which is a pity. Cheers.
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Old 02-05-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

We sail Long Island Sound & around a bit. We''ve experimented, but for 30 years I''ve almost always have the pole jaws open down. On our Soling as well as on smaller dinghies, I''ve noticed that some jaws have an angle on the pin so that the pole can be rested on the mast fitting and then pulled down, snapping the pole into place. Also, if the chute is lifting against the pin, as it could with the jaws up, the pressure could bind the pin so the pole couldn''t open. Binding the pin would be unlikely with the jaws down. Hathaway Reiser & Raymond (riggers and sailmakers in Stamford for a LONG time and for a lot of people besides us) set up the topping lift and downhaul bridles on our J/36 pole, and jaws down is how it flies.
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Old 02-10-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

I can''t resist this one. I have set up my boats and others with the pole jaw opening upwards ever since an incident 13 or 14 years ago. A downhaul block broke and the pole skied into the mast (nasty broach). The rather fat aluminum casting became jammed in the mast car ring, and little could be done until the all the pressure was out of the Spinnaker (trailing behind in the water). Once stable (and out of the race), while trying to free the pole in haste, it acted as a lever, and the car was destroyed. I''ll vote for jaw opening up on my 3300# 30 footer with an SA/D near 30 and a 900+ sq. foot spinnaker. Another benefit is that the outboard end can "fall" downward and away from the guy before the gybe. It''s easier to release using gravity.
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Old 02-10-2002
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Double Spinn Sheets

Hmmm. So if your topping lift had broken instead,would you be putting the jaws down for the same reasons as you now put them up?
I can see how the casting could jam and distort the mast fitting either way. This warrants its own discussion - or perhaps a new reader poll at the login page !! I will start the new thread with an appropriate title.
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