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  #11  
Old 09-30-2007
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Kevlar is banned but Carbon Fiber isn't??? That's whacked.
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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Thanks all for the interesting comments.

I'm going to see the sailmaker today and will ask him about "racing dacron" and see what he can offer - unfortunately Kevlar is banned by class rules

--Cameron
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  #12  
Old 09-30-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Kevlar is banned but Carbon Fiber isn't??? That's whacked.
Apologies - I should have been more specific. At the moment all laminates are banned - sort of - depending upon how you read the wording.

I used to race a certain class of fast dinghy that allowed both Dacron and Mylar Laminate. My question derived from my belief that there wan't much of a performance difference between dacron and mylar simply because they were both allowed under the class rules of a one-design dinghy (since proved wrong here - hey, you learn something new every day ). I wanted to check my theories before applying to the Hartley Association for clarification.

--Cameron
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  #13  
Old 10-01-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Also, nowadays there's Dacron and then there's Dacron. Ask your sailmaker about "hard racing Dacron". It makes for a much more stable sail without the attendant problems (or cost) of the laminates.

We have had a couple of mainsails made from this stiffer material, and they've been great sails - but a bit of a bear to flake (much better to roll them up and store in a tube bag off the boom)

They provide a middle ground between standard Dacron cruising sails and the more expensive laminates - in costs, durability, stability and longevity.
I've just been to the sailmaker. FWIW, he suggested sails made from "PenTex" as being a better solution than Racing Dacron.

The fabric looks really similar to the old Mylar laminate but it's apparently a far stronger fibre and more UV resistant than Kevlar - and cheaper too!

--Cameron
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  #14  
Old 10-01-2007
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I look at this very differently than the rest of the you. The big difference between Mylar/linear polyester sails like Pentex is that they stretch less in a gust than dacron. If you have an expert crew constantly and agressively trimming and adjusting halyards then there is very little difference in pointing ability and speed, but with a typical amatuer crew or for cruising then the retained sail shape means big gains over a long course. Also, the mylar sails have a much longer useful lifespan than dacron if you are concerned with performance. With J-22's we get 1 to 2 years max of racing out of dacron sails before they are too blown out to be competitive. That class does not permit linear polyester/mylar, but in the classes that do they easily get 2-3 years out of the mylar sails. In those same classes, the kevlar sails typically have 3 to 5 years of useful life.

The misconception that dacron lasts longer than kevlar or mylar laminates comes from the fact that Kevlar or polyester laminates need to be handled more carefully, and Dacron will remain a white triangle longer than the laminates.

Jeff

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  #15  
Old 10-01-2007
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if you are limited by class rules, I highly suggest you inquire of your class race chair and other members to determine the best sail choices.
This list can only give you general advice.
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  #16  
Old 10-01-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
I've just been to the sailmaker. FWIW, he suggested sails made from "PenTex" as being a better solution than Racing Dacron.

The fabric looks really similar to the old Mylar laminate but it's apparently a far stronger fibre and more UV resistant than Kevlar - and cheaper too!

--Cameron
Cameron

Our sailmaker (Quantum) suggested pentex for our jib, but recommended hard dacron for the mainsail on a lightweight 24 foot day racer.
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  #17  
Old 10-01-2007
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re class rules:

Check carefully with your class to ensure no changes are coming soon.

Our Niagara 26 has a class association in Nova Scotia where they race one design at one club only. I have attempted to make every upgrade class legal even though I do not sail in their races just to keep the boat standard. In most cases I would have done nothing differently but ...

When I bought a new main it was dacron as specified and I opted for 2+2 loose footed configuration. At the spring Association meeting it was raised that loose foot was not permitted - then we came up with measurement rules to allow it - but I was needless to say concerned since I had already paid for the sail. Also I do like the loose foot and think it definitely better in my situation.

Other restrictions were dacron sails only and they sail with blade and main only. So for my blade & main I went dacron and #1 kevlar since it is not a class sail but I used it in PHRF racing .... all good.

I was told no foils were permitted so went hanks. Now I am changing to a twin foil and tape luff on headsails because I have often had need to change sails in a longer race. As it turns out a number of boats have foils already that race in this class ....

No rigi vangs are another restriction as we are supposed to comply with original rigging of the boat, etc...

My point is that you shoudl check out what other boats in the class are using and what is coming down the pipe. Then if you are not racing in that class go with what makes you happiest. I know if I chose to go with twinfoil system at this point I would do it regardless of our association as I do PHRF racing and that system is better for what I do.

Hope this is of some help

Mike
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  #18  
Old 10-01-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikehoyt View Post
re class rules:

Check carefully with your class to ensure no changes are coming soon.
...

My point is that you shoudl check out what other boats in the class are using and what is coming down the pipe. Then if you are not racing in that class go with what makes you happiest. I know if I chose to go with twinfoil system at this point I would do it regardless of our association as I do PHRF racing and that system is better for what I do.
Thanks, Mike. I know they are planning some changes (not least to fix the vague wording), so I'll wait and see what they allow. At least I've done soem research now and know what I can and can't do as things stand now.

I think twinfoils are great, but unfortunately they're totally impractical for a TS..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Cameron

Our sailmaker (Quantum) suggested pentex for our jib, but recommended hard dacron for the mainsail on a lightweight 24 foot day racer.
Thanks, Faster. That's exactly what I plan to do - once I've saved enough $$$.

A$900 for a new pentex jib - ouch!


--Cameron

Last edited by Classic30; 10-01-2007 at 07:19 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-01-2007
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Yes, you'll be pinching those pennies for a while, Cameron.

You may be interested to know that our Yacht Club once bought a Hartley 16 for back moorage to use as a junior sailing trainer. It was plywood on frame construction, and had suffered some considerable neglect. We shortened up the cabin to create a larger cockpit, and used it for our sailing program. (The prevailing conditions - 20 knots nearly every day and very cold water - precluded using the usual optis or lasers)

We had a lot of fun with it until we replaced it with a larger fiberglass boat.

And now, back to our regular programming......
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