Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Blogs               
Boat Search (new)




Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest Forums > Racing
User Name
Password
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 Like this article?  Digg It!  or   Bookmark it!
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2008
xuraax xuraax is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21
Rep Power: 0
xuraax is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
btw - go to the song chain to build up your post count!
what's that?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2008
xuraax xuraax is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21
Rep Power: 0
xuraax is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by xuraax View Post
what's that?
ok got it. but what a waste of time.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2008
Jeff_H's Avatar
Jeff_H Jeff_H is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 4,110
Rep Power: 9
Jeff_H will become famous soon enough
Those slam round ups can be prevented by the helmsman and mainsail trimmer's quick actions. All boats have a heel angle at which they begin to airate the rudder and stall the rudder. That heel angle is different for each boat, but that angle is usually between 35 and 45 degrees. The boat should have an inclinometer (heel angle guage). I suggest that your crew should spend some time sailing in heavy enough winds to experiment and find that angle watching the inclinometer. Your mainsail trimmer and helmsman need to completely understand that angle and keep the boat safely below that angle of heel. That's easier said than done in big shifting gusts.

In big gusts, as the gusts hit the helmsman needs to instantly move the helm towards the center and take a big bite to windward, and the mainsail trimmer needs to drop the traveller to the stops and if necessary then blow off the sheet going into vang sheeting mode, which does a collection of things, first of all, it unloads the low pressure side of the rudder and reduces the amount of air being sucked down the rudder blade and allows the rudder to bite again , it reduces heel angle and places more of the rudder to be in the water. Only as the boat flattens in those conditions can the helmsman begin to slowly and steadily load the blade again and the mainsail trimmer slowly apply more mainsail.

I may be wrong but I seem to recall that some of these boats came with cabin top mounted travellers. There's not much you can do with a cabin top traveller. The kinds of quick traveller adjustments and sheet trimming is pretty much out of the question given the high frictional loads and difficulty in getting adequate sheet tension without excessive boom bend.

On most boats it can also help to move the crew weight aft in those conditions, allowing you to use the higher stability of the stern more aggressively and pushing the rudder deeper into the water.

You should be carrying just enough sail for the steady state condition and then be prepared to shift quickly to gust survival mode. That said, people who grew up sailing masthead rigs tend to carry way too much jib (#1's) far longer than it is needed on a fractional rig. You should be able to shift to your #3 at around 14-15 knots of true wind (20 plus knots apparent upwind) and be much more controlled and faster to boot. A modern #3 on a fractional can have a very wide range (8 knots to as much as 25-30 knots) and so offers great flexibility in those conditions. I have a flat and a full #3, both kevlar, and the full #3 works great in very light winds rounded up with massive backstay ease and great in heavy air, bladed out with massive amounts of backstay tension.

Racing on most fractional riggers, you almost never want to reef until the steady state winds are well up over 20 knots. The mainsails on these boats are so trimmable, that they have wildly wide wind ranges. Your question about keeping a genoa up for balance ignores the fact that the leech of a #1 genoa moves the center of effort aft relative to a number 3, even though the sail itself is at the forward end of the boat. Of course opening the leech of the genoa helps move the center of effort forward a small amount but moving the car too far aft risks powering up the head of the sail.

One minor point, I think that Alex (Giulletta) is being too hard on the Elan 37. These boats generally look like well designed IRC/IMS racer/cruisers. This is not part of Elan's goofy Impression raised salon series or their earlier IOR based series. I have always been a fan of Rob Humphrey's race boats, and the deep lead keel version looks to be one of his better designs. It may not be as sophisticated as state of the art IRC boats, but it is still a very raceable design under PHRF and probably under IRC.

Jeff

Last edited by Jeff_H : 04-20-2008 at 11:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
xuraax xuraax is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21
Rep Power: 0
xuraax is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post

I may be wrong but I seem to recall that some of these boats came with cabin top mounted travellers. There's not much you can do with a cabin top traveller. The kinds of quick traveller adjustments and sheet trimming is pretty much out of the question given the high frictional loads and difficulty in getting adequate sheet tension without excessive boom bend. Jeff
This boat has a proper traveller just in front of the wheel so this cannot be the problem. The only gribe I have is that this version has the standard keel and not the racing keel so this cannot be helping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
and great in heavy air, bladed out with massive amounts of backstay tension.
That was in fact the original question: How much is massive backstay tension?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Your question about keeping a genoa up for balance ignores the fact that the leech of a #1 genoa moves the center of effort aft relative to a number 3, even though the sail itself is at the forward end of the boat.
It is true that a genoa has a center of effort further back than that of #3 but surely it should still be in front of the centre of resistance of the boat. Otherwise there would be nothing to balance out the main and you would always have weather helm.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2008
Jeff_H's Avatar
Jeff_H Jeff_H is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 4,110
Rep Power: 9
Jeff_H will become famous soon enough
"It is true that a genoa has a center of effort further back than that of #3 but surely it should still be in front of the centre of resistance of the boat. Otherwise there would be nothing to balance out the main and you would always have weather helm."

My point was that a changing from a #1 genoa to #3 genoa will move the center of effort forward nearly as much as reefing, but the boat will be easier to handle and if that sail is made to be low stretch and take advantage of differences in headstay sag, will have a wider range of windspeeds than a reefed mainsail.

Originally Posted by Jeff_H
and great in heavy air, bladed out with massive amounts of backstay tension.

"That was in fact the original question: How much is massive backstay tension?"

That varies with the boat, but your helmsperson should be able to feel when there is too much helm, too much heel, and so either need to reduce sail area or increase backstay tension, or by the same token feels too depowered and should be eased out. There needs to be communication between the mainsail trimmer and hemsman with both able to provide input. At least on modern boats, your not going to break the boat with any amount of backstay that you are likely to put on. The bigger problem is undersized backstay adjusters and stretchy forestays.

Jeff


Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
Giulietta Giulietta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,694
Rep Power: 5
Giulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the rough
Xuraax, sorry I was not responding earlier.

I am away from home but for now this will do.

To answer your question...the max safe amount of mast bend, by action of a backstay, in any normal mast should not be more than 2 to 3% of the distance from the mast base (for keel steped and cabin stepped) to the mast top. ie. The lenght of the whole mast.

So if the mast is keel stepped, the distance inside the cabin counts too..
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
xuraax xuraax is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21
Rep Power: 0
xuraax is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giulietta View Post
Xuraax, sorry I was not responding earlier.

I am away from home but for now this will do.
..
Don't worry about it. I have just returned from abroad myself.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Giulietta View Post

To answer your question...the max safe amount of mast bend, by action of a backstay, in any normal mast should not be more than 2 to 3% of the distance from the mast base (for keel steped and cabin stepped) to the mast top. ie. The lenght of the whole mast.

So if the mast is keel stepped, the distance inside the cabin counts too..
Ahhh!!! indeed it is good to finally have some numbers on which to work on.

I will do the actual mast measurements this weekend but for now, doing an estimate based on the I specifications and adding 2m for the part of the mast inside the cabin I estimate that the total mast length is 16m. This would mean a maximum allowable bend of 32cms(2%) to 48cms(3%).

Does this sound about right?

regards
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
Giulietta Giulietta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,694
Rep Power: 5
Giulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by xuraax View Post
I will do the actual mast measurements this weekend but for now, doing an estimate based on the I specifications and adding 2m for the part of the mast inside the cabin I estimate that the total mast length is 16m. This would mean a maximum allowable bend of 32cms(2%) to 48cms(3%).

Does this sound about right?

regards
Yes it does. However, and to play it safe, because I don't know what mast you have, start with the 2%.

In Europe Elans come with Sparcraft (click here) masts.(Charleston Spars in the US), and of the preformance series. Click here

Some Performance masts, like the Sparcraft Performance series, will allow up to 3%, but you need to assure that pre bend is EXCATLY right. DO NOT EXCEED. My mast is a Sparcraft Performance series.

Another thing you need to check while youre at it is the pre bend.

The pre bend or "belly forward" the mast has in the middle, with the mast at rest, in the neutral position, should not exceed half of the mast diameter.

Another thing you can check is rake, wich as you know is the aft tilting of the mast, or longitudinal Adjustment.

I once wrote a procedure to help a friend Sailneter adjust his mast because he was away from a place where a rigger could do the job.

I am going to post that procedure today in another thread.

Hope I helped, and if you have any more quaestions, ask

Alex
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
Giulietta Giulietta is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,694
Rep Power: 5
Giulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the roughGiulietta is a jewel in the rough
Xuraax...I made it, see if it can help you, ok?

go to the search bar and type RIG...there is a thread called 'adjsuting your rig".

Hope it helps
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-24-2008
xuraax xuraax is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 21
Rep Power: 0
xuraax is on a distinguished road
Excellent thread and a "must read" for everybody.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question: Which backstay radar mount system? camaraderie Gear & Maintenance 8 03-25-2008 11:10 PM
non-insulated backstay HF antenna for metal boat jimthom Cruising 0 05-31-2007 04:54 AM
Adjusting the Backstay Dan Dickison Seamanship Articles 0 08-07-2002 08:00 PM
Backstay Adjusters SailNet Miscellaneous 0 08-23-2000 08:00 PM
Backstay Adjusters SailNet Miscellaneous 0 08-23-2000 08:00 PM

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0 RC8
(c) Sailnet 2000-2006