What's up with the J80 keels? - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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post #11 of 23 Old 04-02-2009
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Originally Posted by paulk View Post
The floors and stringers are inside the hull, where they belong.
Maybe, but they don't do much good if the keel isn't attached to them.
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post #12 of 23 Old 04-02-2009 Thread Starter
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I saw the open letter on their home page telling everyone to check their keels. Time for the liability shuffle, baby.

Honestly - I'm thinking that these keels are built for performance. And this typically means a short life. We seem to think of sailboats in terms of old school boats that lasted 30 years. They're not built that way any more - especially racers. It's about performance not longevity.

Maybe the 80 is a 5-10 year boat?
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post #13 of 23 Old 04-03-2009
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J105



J120



A repiar job

In the past starting with the J24 they have sent out field repiar teams or made the kits nessary to beefup there many weak keel sumps

The first problem was the J24 with the Mushy Vermiculite Problem and i guess its allways been quite because they have taken care of the problems on the down low

From what i read from the first J80 owner to have lost the keel they are throwing him under the bus as well as his insurance company

He has had independent work done to prove the boat was sound before the keel was lost so it still not resolved 1 year later


"OK, here's the story on J80 #21, Skillagalee, since the crash. We had a policy for $25,000 (plus liablility) with International Marine Underwriters, NY, since 1994 when we purchased the boat. Many happy years sailing and racing, nothing more extreme than occasional downwind broaching. Then the keel sump was ripped out and the boat sank.

First survey done almost immediately, paid for by insurance company, which stated "delamination due to fatigue"; insurer got back to say, sorry, we will not pay any loss due to 1) wear and tear, delamination, 2) "your failure to maintain the yacht". We responded with maintenance/yard receipts totaling $28,168. over last five years, not including new sails or gear. They confirmed exclusion, and offered insight that 'sailing is an expensive sport'. I guess it is.

The hull was then transported to RI by J-Boats (at their cost) and another survey done (also at their cost). This resulted in bold statement quoted in prior SA post regarding "longitudinal crazing", supposedly present for substantial time (without my or my high priced yard guy noticing it, despite regular inspection), and keel floor tabbing delamination. In short: no ammunition with insurer.

Act Three: hired my own surveyor. Believe it or not, I just received his report on Monday. He performed core samples in area of keel, and found 1) "fiberglass and balsa core to be perfectly intact showing no sign of water intrusion and no delamination between inner and outer laminates", and 2) very low moisture detected by Tramix moisture meter anywhere in hull. Bottom line: "catastrophic fiberglass failure due to rapid athwart ship pressure from two high speed jibes that accidently occurred in heavy wind... THIS LOSS WAS NOT DUE TO NEGLECT OR LONG TERM DELAMINATION.

So, now another incident, more harrowing and thank god without loss of life or limb. Does this affect my understanding of failure and potentially my case? I think so, and my wife is on the war path. It does not sour me on J-Boats, with whom I've had a positive experience (other than that one time...) including a call yesterday to make sure we're still friends. But I hope it leads to a settlement in arbitration which would allow me to buy a boat and get back on the water."

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If a dirty bottom slows you down what do you think it does to your boat
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post #14 of 23 Old 04-03-2009
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That is rather disturbing. The keel should be engineered to withstand the forces caused by gybing the boat, even accidentally in high winds. That is an event that is not only common, but almost inevitable on any boat sailed in heavy weather and higher winds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
Act Three: hired my own surveyor. Believe it or not, I just received his report on Monday. He performed core samples in area of keel, and found 1) "fiberglass and balsa core to be perfectly intact showing no sign of water intrusion and no delamination between inner and outer laminates", and 2) very low moisture detected by Tramix moisture meter anywhere in hull. Bottom line: "catastrophic fiberglass failure due to rapid athwart ship pressure from two high speed jibes that accidently occurred in heavy wind... THIS LOSS WAS NOT DUE TO NEGLECT OR LONG TERM DELAMINATION.

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post #15 of 23 Old 04-03-2009
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My flip side to this is a boat like Zzzoom i race on 1970 C&C 35 with a 7' custom keel

Allways raced hardcore buy the orginal owner who had the keel,rudder and double spreader rig done and the current long term owner has done 270 races in the boat with a lot of distance stuff over a now 39 year time frame



I gotta say we were really close to springing big time for a J80 becasue it has so much more room and would be really unhappy right now if i had spent the extra 35K over the J24

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If a dirty bottom slows you down what do you think it does to your boat
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Last edited by tommays; 04-03-2009 at 08:51 AM.
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post #16 of 23 Old 04-04-2009
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This is very odd that I should see this thread, because I was talking to an experienced race guy at our club about J/80s a couple of days ago. He said something about the two J/80s that had catastrophic keel failures being in the tranche of the first 25 made, and that after that, some sort of structural enhancement was made to ensure that failure on all subsequent J/80s was less likely.

That's the gist of what he said, and I don't know where he heard it, but he's not a teller of tales out of school, and he doesn't currently own a boat (he co-owned a J/35 for a few years, but is currently boatless and doesn't have a Tartanesque axe to grind, as far as I know).

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post #17 of 23 Old 04-04-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
This is one reason I have a multihull... No stinking keels to fall off.
Oh yeah. What could possibly go wrong?




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post #18 of 23 Old 04-05-2009
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Quote:
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I gotta say we were really close to springing big time for a J80 becasue it has so much more room and would be really unhappy right now if i had spent the extra 35K over the J24
So, whatcha gonna do? What's the repair cost? And who is your J dealer by the way? McMichael's by chance?

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post #19 of 23 Old 04-05-2009
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No comments!!

Really..no comments....

Just happy with my choices...I really am
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post #20 of 23 Old 04-05-2009 Thread Starter
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I don't get it Giu.

Val - so both the failures were in the first 25? It would be nice to know what modifications they made. JeffH - any ideas?

BobM - multis are the safest boats on the planet. Everyone knows that. You don't even have to wear pfds on those things! Obviously you've found some photoshopped monos.
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