America's Cup Multihull Battle Set For February 2010 - Page 2 - SailNet Community

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  #11  
Old 01-28-2010
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My understanding

is that the defender decided to pick a monohull different from the AC class that had been racing for the cup, and prepared a boat to that rule. Then he created a sham Spanish YC that agreed to his rules. These included his total control on such things as mentioned by WanderingStar and others, like moving the venue to Ras al Kaminah and setting a timetable that precluded competitors from having sufficient time to build boats capable of beating the one he'd already started. When essentially the one guy with enough money and fire to call him on this called foul, and went to court over it, the Judge threw the whole rulebook at the defenders. Their assertion that Ras al Kaminah was a viable, secure spot to race is a case in point. At about the time the issue came up before the Judge, Iran seized a British 60' racing sailboat for entering their territory a rather short distance from where the AC racing would have been held, and arrested the crew.
Though sailing big multihulls may be fascinating, the racing is likely to be quite boring. Neither boat is too maneuverable, so don't look for tight circling before the start. After the start, both boats will try to separate to get clear air and shift up to maximum speed as quickly as possible. Wow! Big multihulls zipping along at 20 knots or more! Why not just watch videos of Hydroptère, which is faster? Tacking multihulls is SLOW, so they'll both probably head straight for their laylines and only tack once each leg. Like in a drag race, once the faster boat has been determined, (probably at the first weather mark) the competition will essentially be over. Breakdowns or crew foulups could make the mix more interesting, but both boats have had time to be tested, and the wind range they've settled on shouldn't stress them to break too much. I guess we'll see in a few weeks.
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingStar View Post
I see it differently. Alinghi was trying to control all facets of the race, including the judges. Oracle fought and won in court the right to fight it out on the water.
I am not disputing that the SNG (Alinghy) had exemplar behavior, only saying that the major responsibility for having excluded all the other teams and for having an America´s cup disputed with giant multihull was from GGYC (Oracle/BMW).

In what regards the "right to fight it out on the water", let me remind you that GGYC had tried, by all means and till the last minute, to avoid fight it on the water, at the agreed date:

"Justice Kornreich of the New York Supreme Court informed (29/01) the America’s Cup defending yacht club, Société Nautique de Genève, and the challenging Golden Gate Yacht Club today via telephone conference that she will not hear the American challenger’s complaint regarding the ‘constructed in country’ requirement of the Deed of Gift before the 33rd America’s Cup Match which is scheduled to begin on 8 February.

This means the 33rd America’s Cup is free to proceed as ordered by previous New York rulings: in Valencia on the 8, 10 and 12 February.

“This is excellent news. We are delighted that BMW Oracle’s attempts to disqualify Alinghi and to win the America’s Cup in court have been denied. We look forward to meeting them on the start line here in Valencia on 8 February to race for the Cup; something they can no longer try to avoid,” said Ernesto Bertarelli – two-time America’s Cup winner – on hearing the news when returning ashore after today’s race training session."

As you certainly know, the GGYC last complaint about "constructed in country" had to do with the sails of the Alinghy boat, not with the boat itself. It looks like Oracle´s boat is a genuine product of the American technology, but as you know, almost all knowledge and technology needed to built Oracle's boat, including the sails come (with the technicians to build it) from France, the most advanced country on multihull tech.

Even the American Court found that complaint was too much.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-31-2010 at 12:19 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-31-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulk View Post
is that the defender decided to pick a monohull different from the AC class that had been racing for the cup, and prepared a boat to that rule. Then he created a sham Spanish YC that agreed to his rules. These included his total control on such things as ... like moving the venue to Ras al Kaminah and setting a timetable that precluded competitors from having sufficient time to build boats capable of beating the one he'd already started.....
Paul, first let me say that I like racing and fairness and that it seems that in this forum not many people like it (racing) if you judge for the numbers of visits of the America's cup threads. I like racing and I like to participate and talk about it (I have been in Valencia the last America´s Cup and I will try to be there this year). So please don't see my comments as any form of confrontation. I know that you like racing also and that makes us having something in common, besides sailing.

Saying that, I don´t think you are right about Ras al Kaminah. Fact is that the races initially were to be in Valencia:
"When Société Nautique de Genève (SNG) successfully defended the trophy in the 32nd America's Cup they immediately accepted a challenge from Club Náutico Español de Vela (CNEV) a Spanish organization formed expressly for the purpose of challenging for the cup and keeping the regatta in Valencia."

Ras al Kaminah was only proposed by SNG at a later phase, when all the other teams were out, the multihulls were on and were ragging a Court Battle about everything and nothing.

We talk about SNG and GGNC, as if this was a battle between Clubs but we know this is not true, this ended up to be an ugly battle between two megalomaniac billionaires. That´s why I have said that Oracle/BMW have turned out to be the defenders (on court) by a technicality (they were not even at the finals of the last CUP). And I was not the only one, as you can see, in the own city of the GGNC, there are very credible sources that say the same:

“Taking advantage of loopholes in the documents governing the defense and challenge for the Cup, BMW/ORACLE was able to secure a one-against-one match race against Alinghi, rather than the usual multi-team challenger series of fleet races and match races previously used to determine which team would eventually win the right to challenge the Cup defender.”

Confused? You're in very good company. The legal challenges, and the legal bills, may surpass the complexity and cost of the boats themselves.

The last time such an odd America's Cup loop-hole challenge was made was in 1988, when New Zealander Sir Michael Fay challenged Dennis Conner and the San Diego Yacht Club, who then held the Cup, with a mono-hulled "monster boat". Conner, responding with a few deft legal loophole jumps of his own, defeated Sir Michael with a giant purpose-built catamaran, winning back the Cup.”

http://www.examiner.com/x-29731-Americas-Cup-Examiner~y2009m11d10-Its-on--Americas-Cup-rivals-finally-reach-agreement-over-matchrace-venue

Regarding the choice of boat, as you know, many different monohulls were chosen for the different CUPs. The one proposed was better faster and more modern than the last one and would have permitted more spectacular races. If there was some disagreement between the teams regarding the Protocol (and the Protocol was later altered to accommodate some of the challengers’ demands) that has nothing to do with the choice of the boat, that was almost consensual. The boat details were also displayed in good time and “ SNG continued to work with the other teams on the protocol, and by December 2007 twelve challengers had met the entry deadline and were preparing to race in a multi-challenge 33rd America’s Cup”.

These twelve challengers had already put some of the best world boat designers at work and some were already building the boats (I had saw the basic layout of that boat and it was a beautiful boat – bigger, beamier and a lot faster, specially downwind).

So, it seems that it displeases you, as much as me that the CUP has turned out not to be about a sailing race but a personal dispute between two very rich Megalomaniacs, that the most important match race should not be raced in gigantic monohulls and that is wrong that all other teams (including the last final contender) have been excluded. So, it seems that we agree on the essential.

For the ones that want to know more about the America´s cup, Wikipedia has two good articles, one generic, another on this year’s Cup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_America%27s_Cup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America's_Cup

And if you look well at its story you will see that fairness, was not always on the table. After all it looks that not all sailors are Gentlemen .

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 01-31-2010 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Bad English
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  #14  
Old 02-01-2010
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Paulo,

Well said! I wonder what the 34th defense will hold?

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Old 02-02-2010
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this from NPR. Looks like both sides would rather race monohulls:

America's Cup Sails Into (And Over) Uncharted Seas : NPR
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Old 02-03-2010
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Thanks Down.

These guys are incredible. 5 days away from the first race and there are still court decisions. That's childish.

Today, jury decision:

Twitter feeds - News feed - 33rd America's Cup
http://www.americascup.com/multimedi...ision_3301.pdf

One of the claims (by Oracle/BMW) that was not atended was about the hour to begin the races. They wanted to start later. Alinghy team said that if it was later, they would finish at night. Oracle/BMW said that there was nothing on the rules that said they could not finish at night.

Match racing at night

Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2010 at 04:11 PM.
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2010
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Not even a win of Alinghy on the water will stop the Oracle/BMW. I mean if they lose, they can still win...not on the water, but on a US court:

"Court Date Set for "Constructed in Country"
The New York Supreme Court will hear arguments February 25th on the issue of whether the Defender's sails comply with the rules regarding national origin of racing yachts in the America's Cup. Since that date is, weather permitting, after the likely conclusion of racing in Valencia, yet could determine the validity of the match, an element of uncertainty exists as to race results. Less so if Golden Gate YC and BMW Oracle Racing prevail on the water, in which case claims of disadvantage would be effectively moot, and, although definitively settling this aspect of the rules could be helpful in future matches, GGYC would almost certainly drop their case.

The Deed of Gift, the ruling 08document of the America’s Cup, requires the competing yachts to be powered by sails and constructed in the country they represent. "


Last edited by PCP; 02-04-2010 at 04:31 PM.
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Old 02-05-2010
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I never remember much coverage of the event when I was growing up. It seems I could only ever manage to catch part of the race on some random lazy sunday afternoon.

Having just gotten back in to sailing, I have to say that I was quite looking forward to this year's race, admiring how the real racing crews handled their large boats in tough racing conditions. Though I will probably still enjoy the multi-hulls, I was really looking forward to some tactical (traditional) monohull dueling, and now am a bit disappointed.

I find great value in traditon. Sometimes people let it bind progress, and that's always a touchy subject, but for the most part there is usually a reason it became a traditon. To me this is like selling your classic muscle car for a suped-up Fast and Furious nitros racer. Great speed, but limited class.
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Old 02-05-2010
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RepCast Weather for Race 1: Monday morning overcast with light rain. Breeze of around 9-12 knots will come from the SW initially, but begin to swing around to the WNW during the morning, freshen to around 15-18 knots; prediction is that wind will continue to increase to 25-28 knots by the late afternoon. (Feb 5)

America's Cup News and Information - from CupInfo.com

These are very good racing conditions = max speed.

I am very curious to see what happens if they start with 12k and the wind builds up to 18k - 20k. We can make bets on what boat will break first
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Old 02-05-2010
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I have no idea where or when I can watch this.
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