Schock 35 - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Racing
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 05-03-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
afterschock is on a distinguished road
The S35 should easlily beat a J30 straight up even with the shoal keel.

How did you prepare the bottom and what type of paint did you use?

These boats can be tender. Crew/weight positioning is really important and has to change with given wind conditions. Playing the backstay is really important too.

Dave Ullman wrote a tuning guide some time ago. It used to be on the Ullman Sails website or on the S35 class association's site. That guide is a good baseline for getting your boat tweaked.

The shoal keel will kill you though. You will have a tough time getting upwind competitively.

Where are you sailing the boat? What other types of boats are you up against?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 05-31-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
MrDoug is on a distinguished road
A well sailed J30 is pretty awesome, but even a poorly sailed Schock-35 ought to take its lunch money. Your sails are definitely the culprit.

See if you can get an experienced racer to go out with you next time. You'll be amazed what your boat can do in 2-3 hours with a guy that knows what he is doing.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 07-06-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
MrDoug is on a distinguished road
A Schock 35 should rate at 72...and be tough to beat in light air. I race on a J/35 that has issues with the Schocks when the air is light, and the sea is choppy. Heavy air, and we take their lunch-money, but if it's light...look out.

There HAS to be something up if you aren't able to beat a J/30. Even a poorly sailed S35 should be able to beat an expertly sailed J/30.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 07-09-2010
mikehoyt's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 675
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 14
mikehoyt is on a distinguished road
A couple of thoughts.

1. I see only Schock 35 and Schock 35 WK variations on the lists we use. I am guessing you have the Wing Keel rather than shoal keel version. If you do not have the wing keel or the standard keel than I would guess is a custom mod. Not sure how that would affect performance

2. I only have access to the 2004 US Sailing book as I had loaned out my 2009 version. However in there the Shock 35 WK rates 6 sec slower in three areas than the regular version in those same three areas. In a fourth area is 9 sec.

3. 88 seems to be a very generous handicap for this boat. The wing keel version tends to be in the 78-81 range most places.

4. What all of the above have said.
i. race boats are difficult to sail to their potential for a new to boat sailor esp compared to cruising boats.
ii. bad bottom prep is slow
iii. old sails are slow
iv. -> this is the cheap one <- bad rig tune is very slow
v. learning curve tougher on most race designed boats

Our J/27 is now in our third year with the boat. Last year we bought new #1 and new main. They never quite seemed right. We measured the rig and found forestay short - added a 2 inch toggle for this year and tuned according to J Boats guide and is like a new boat. Also long board sanded an already smooth bottom, faired the keel and applied and wet sanded VC Offshore. Boat performs much better than last year and we have had very good sailors on board the last three years so it was not them. The longer forestay was the key - boat points higher and goes faster to wind with #1 and with blade. Same driver and crew.

After all the work we did and after new #1, main, spin and after 3 years we are only now hitting the target speeds that are published for the boat.

Stick with it. It is very rewarding.


Oh - and we now have spent twice as much on the boat AFTER WE BOUGHT IT as we paid for its initial Purchase.

Mike
Nut Case
J/27 #150
J27 #150
__________________
Mike

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 07-09-2010
ASA and PSIA Instructor
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,448
Thanks: 6
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 15
sailingfool will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discoverer View Post
The PHRF handicapper gave me 3 points for the shoal keel, so in THEORY it shouldn't be that bad, should it?
I race mostly in light air and it seems she has lots of issues in these conditions. As soon as it starts blowing she powers up and beats many competitors.
My personal experience is that PHRF adjustments for speed-killers dont adjust performance for how slow the boat iactually is, except for the roller furling adjustment. That 3 or 6 or even 9 seconds for a short keel is never going to make up for the performance benefits of a deep keel, nor does a 6 second credit come close to adjusting for a fixed prop.

You see this in the boats that the serious racers use...the guys who make a science out of the rule-beating. You wont see any short keels, fixed props or other credits, except the near universal RF, but you'll see lots of debit adjustments for taller masts, bigger poles, etc. Fast jsut works out better overall...
__________________
Certified...in several regards...

Last edited by sailingfool; 07-09-2010 at 12:34 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 11-25-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
VampireJ30 is on a distinguished road
Ok Ok enough of the J30 bashing

"You should be able to easily beat a J-30 boat for boat”
" J-30s aren't exactly rocket ships in light air"
And my favorite!
"A well sailed J30 is pretty awesome, but even a poorly sailed Schock-35 ought to take its lunch money"
Come on big boy! Come and get it. I am the J30 sailor in question and unfortunately he is comparing himself to a boat that I would like to say is well sailed and well prepared.
Vampire has the latest sails good crew and we have allot of experience.
I have been racing for over 20 years and often beat J35s Ex37s and even well sailed S35s. And I’m not the only one. Just check out the axe murder from Friction Loss in the Pac cup this year. That J30 beat a J120!
And this Schock has suffered especially bad as Radiant heat has finished 1/2 hour ahead of her on a 24 hour race before corrected!
So now that I have established that he is not driving in reverse because he has chosen to compare himself to a consistent podium boat lets get back to the main issue.
The S35 in question has old sails But he is working on it.
His crew needs work. Crew errors are common but this too is improving.
And it is never good to sail past the mark with the spin still up.
And I hate to say it but you often sail out into the current while the leaders in the fleet dig deep into the beach on heavy current days.
And the last thing is "you wander" I don’t let my eyes leave the telltales but My tactician is always telling me that you are not trimmed and then not driving to the sail.

You’re still learning the boat. Stick with her. She has legs as you seen on the upwind leg at patos. But I think you have another year at least till you break into the top three.
First work on crew drills.
2-lengthen that forestay some more.
3-make your crew earn new sails. When they can trim well then give them the good stuff.
You know I replace one sail a year to spread out the costs.
And keep doing what you’re doing. Get out there and sail. Ask the hard questions. No one will turn you away as we only want you faster.
Please be patient. We didn’t fall out of our mothers sailing. We had to have some milk first. Ok blood for me.

As for J29s
There are two of these in our club and normally they follow me around the marks! This old girl has legs. And she is #18 of over 500 made. If they made that many there must be some one out there learning there boat you could take there lunch money from!
cool:

Last edited by VampireJ30; 11-25-2010 at 02:43 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 11-26-2010
JohnRPollard's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Chesapeake
Posts: 5,680
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough JohnRPollard is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by VampireJ30 View Post
Ok Ok enough of the J30 bashing

"You should be able to easily beat a J-30 boat for boat”
" J-30s aren't exactly rocket ships in light air"
And my favorite!
"A well sailed J30 is pretty awesome, but even a poorly sailed Schock-35 ought to take its lunch money"
Come on big boy! Come and get it. I am the J30 sailor in question and unfortunately he is comparing himself to a boat that I would like to say is well sailed and well prepared....
Are you suggesting you would be happy to compete against Schock 35s with a level rating?

Yours may be a well-sailed J30, but an equally well-sailed Schock 35 should beat you boat for boat quite handily. In theory, applying the handicap to the J30 elapsed time will nearly equalize the result.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Pacific Seacraft Crealock 31 #62

NEVER CALLS CRUISINGDAD BACK....CAN"T TAKE THE ACCENT
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #28  
Old 11-26-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
VampireJ30 is on a distinguished road
Ok I'm not quite that cocky that I think I can beat a Shock 35 boat for boat every day. But in this case I can and with certainty with the difficulty this boat is having learning the boat.
your Rite that the ratings should equal things out but PHRF is not perfect as we know. But I have Beat Shock 35s ( that I consider sailed well) and J35s and even express 37s boat for boat and even passed a MUM 30 last year in the N100,
But normally I correct over them. I'm just saying it is not a given that you will beat a J30 on Race day. 30years old now and This girl still turns heads.

And as a side line I actually like the Shock 35 as I was looking at buying Ian's "fancy Free" here in Vancouver. Nice boat and Fast. Although I have beat him in races. Wife wants more room!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #29  
Old 11-26-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,370
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 9
puddinlegs is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by VampireJ30 View Post
Ok I'm not quite that cocky that I think I can beat a Shock 35 boat for boat every day. But in this case I can and with certainty with the difficulty this boat is having learning the boat.
your Rite that the ratings should equal things out but PHRF is not perfect as we know. But I have Beat Shock 35s ( that I consider sailed well) and J35s and even express 37s boat for boat and even passed a MUM 30 last year in the N100,
But normally I correct over them. I'm just saying it is not a given that you will beat a J30 on Race day. 30years old now and This girl still turns heads.

And as a side line I actually like the Shock 35 as I was looking at buying Ian's "fancy Free" here in Vancouver. Nice boat and Fast. Although I have beat him in races. Wife wants more room!


...As for J29s
There are two of these in our club and normally they follow me around the marks! This old girl has legs. And she is #18 of over 500 made. If they made that many there must be some one out there learning there boat you could take there lunch money from!
cool:
You know, if you've beaten an Express 37 boat for boat, even if you're the J30 world champ, there's something VERY wrong with the 37... maybe a filthy bottom, poor sails, or an exceptionally poorly sailed E-37. Either that, or you've simply lucked out during a drifter/crapshoot. The same for the J35 and even more so for the Mumm 30. We've sailed downwind with a Mumm 30, a J109, and a Farr 39 in a drifter downwind in our 99 rated boat. We traded gybes for the better part of an hour. We've also gone a long way upwind with a well sailed 109 in very light air. The boats mentioned above rate 40, 69, and 18 respectively. Even so, I'd never lay claim to realistically staying with these boat in 99.89% (99.999% for the Farr 39) of all the conditions we'd typically see during an average race. Yes, we've even beaten Express 37's boat for boat on occassion, but they were being sailed by new owners/racers who really didn't have the boat dialed in, so I'm not going to be boasting about it or claim our boat is faster. All things being equal, it just doesn't happen in normal circumstances, and it isn't. Hmmmm... There used to be 3 J-29's raced in Vancouver. 1 was well sailed and had a good inventory but has since sold. The other two had very tired sail inventories, hadn't been sailed for years by their owners and crews, and the owner of one was living aboard. Again, not a performance comparison I'd make.

All that said, nothing wrong with a J-30 at all and more power to you if you're doing well. As you mention, when prepped and well sailed they'll do very well in PHRF and provide a lot of bang for the buck, but the boat for boat speed comparisons that you allude to are oddities at best even if your last name where "MacDonald".

Last edited by puddinlegs; 11-27-2010 at 02:30 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #30  
Old 12-15-2010
Dbltime's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Queenstown, MD
Posts: 10
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Dbltime is on a distinguished road
My .02 and first post, yea...
I have a 1981 New York 36 that I raced a intermittently over the last 4 years. Middle of the pack.
Last race I invited a rock star of whom only races to win. He changes everything he can change on the boat while en route to the start. He calls the shots... the boat is lightning fast under his command. Boat for boat passing boats that owe us 4-10 seconds. We still managed to make enough mitakes to finish in the back but the point being talent is key.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Schock Santana questions winslow59 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 9 05-23-2007 06:02 PM
28'' Schock Santana - Opinions? shoopdj Boat Review and Purchase Forum 1 05-31-2004 05:22 PM
Schock 36 drynoc Boat Review and Purchase Forum 3 07-22-2003 12:56 PM
W.D. Schock Santana 30 info? sailonjazz General Discussion (sailing related) 5 08-23-2002 11:35 AM
Schock 30/30 newuser Boat Review and Purchase Forum 1 06-20-2002 08:31 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:34 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.