Rules questions

GreatWhite · #1 (**permalink**) 07-12-2010

I was racing on the weekend and a fellow racer and I were on the same tack (port). He tacked to starboard and I did my best to avoid him by ducking under him. We almost collided. He called a protest on me.

I thought the rule was that I tacking boat should avoid other boats.

He did make it across to starboard but even though I moved as quickly as I could I couldn't avoid him.

2) Earlier I saw the same racer A hit windward mark. There was another boat B approaching the mark but got totally becalmed and was stuck in irons. The A boat had previously been on a port tack but was stuck. I watched A approach the situation on a starboard tack. (A) could have easily gone above the B boat but instead tucked under and hit the mark and made it around. Should he have done a penalty mark.

The A boat racer was very adamant about being right and has told others they should read the race rules (if they can read).

Faster · #2 (**permalink**) 07-12-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatWhite

I was racing on the weekend and a fellow racer and I were on the same tack (port). He tacked to starboard and I did my best to avoid him by ducking under him. We almost collided. He called a protest on me.

I thought the rule was that I tacking boat should avoid other boats.

If you did not collide, I can't see any reason to protest you unless he had to make a serious course change too... however it does sound to me like he tacked too close in the first place, and I believe he has to give you "room and opportunity to keep clear"

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatWhite

2) Earlier I saw the same racer A hit windward mark. There was another boat B approaching the mark but got totally becalmed and was stuck in irons. The A boat had previously been on a port tack but was stuck. I watched A approach the situation on a starboard tack. (A) could have easily gone above the B boat but instead tucked under and hit the mark and made it around. Should he have done a penalty mark.
.

If you hit the mark I believe you need to do a 360 deg penalty turn (as opposed to a 720 for other infractions)

Disclaimer: it's been a while since we actively raced and some of these basic rules may have been altered lately....

GreatWhite · #3 (**permalink**) 07-12-2010

2) Earlier I saw the same racer A hit windward mark. There was another boat B approaching the mark but got totally becalmed and was stuck in irons. The A boat had previously been on a port tack but was stuck. I watched A approach the situation on a starboard tack. (A) could have easily gone above the B boat but instead tucked under and hit the mark and made it around. Should he have done a penalty turn.
.
If you hit the mark I believe you need to do a 360 deg penalty turn (as opposed to a 720 for other infractions)

Disclaimer: it's been a while since we actively raced and some of these basic rules may have been altered lately....

The other boat B was approaching on port so didn't have rights. If the other boat B had fouled the boat A that hit the mark he would not be obliged to do a 360 penalty.

The question I see is: did the boat B in irons foul A if they (B) couldn't respond in a seaman like fashion. The passing boat A had steerage and had the choice to navigate under or over the boat in irons.

SEMIJim · #4 (**permalink**) 07-13-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatWhite

He did make it across to starboard but even though I moved as quickly as I could I couldn't avoid him.

I don't have my rulebook handy, but, ... this one's kind of tricky. Theoretically speaking: Once he completed his tack you were the give way boat but I don't believe he's allowed to tack right on top of you so as to create a situation where you either have to crash tack or take some other emergency maneuver to avoid him. The question would boil down to one of distance and timing. Usually it's a Good Idea to try to anticipate such dirty tricks on the part of competitors and try to avoid putting yourself in such a position that they can be pulled on you

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatWhite

2) Earlier I saw the same racer A hit windward mark. ... Should he have done a penalty mark.

Yes.

I think there might be an exception if a boat is forced into hitting the mark, to avoid a collision, but this does not sound like such a situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatWhite

The A boat racer was very adamant about being right and has told others they should read the race rules (if they can read).

The "A boat" racer sounds like an utter jerk. Every fleet has 'em.

Jim

paulk · #5 (**permalink**) 07-13-2010

Two things going on here. 1/ Bullying 2/rules infractions.
Did "A" actually protest you, or did he simply yell "protest" during your Port/Starboard encounter? If you started to duck him once he was on starboard, and you missed him, he would have a hard time proving that he had to make a major course change to miss you. If he claims that he DID have to make a major course change to miss you, (and so did you, apparently), then he obviously tacked too close and HE should be protested by you, since HE is at fault in that case. If he had to tack, due to an obstruction, he needed to have hailed you to that effect, and STILL given you room and opportunity to keep clear.

If someone hits a mark they do a 360 turn. If they fail to do their turn, you can protest them. If they are forced into the mark, they can protest the boat that forced them to hit it, and ask the race committee for redress, but if they hit the mark, there's nothing in the rules that exonerates them during the race: THEY DO THE TURN. That's why they need redress: doing the turn during the race impacts their results, and they were forced into the mark through no fault of their own. If they don't do the turn after hitting the mark, they are cheating. We drifted into a mark in a recent race (no one else to blame) and had three boats pass us as we did our turn. Tough. Take a camera next time and have proof for the protest committee. If this guy thinks you can't read, throw the rulebook back at him and shut him up.

I keep my rulebook handy all the time.

GreatWhite · #6 (**permalink**) 07-14-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulk

Two things going on here. 1/ Bullying 2/rules infractions.

....

If someone hits a mark they do a 360 turn. If they fail to do their turn, you can protest them. If they are forced into the mark, they can protest the boat that forced them to hit it, and ask the race committee for redress, but if they hit the mark, there's nothing in the rules that exonerates them during the race: THEY DO THE TURN. That's why they need redress: doing the turn during the race impacts their results, and they were forced into the mark through no fault of their own. If they don't do the turn after hitting the mark, they are cheating. We drifted into a mark in a recent race (no one else to blame) and had three boats pass us as we did our turn. Tough. Take a camera next time and have proof for the protest committee. If this guy thinks you can't read, throw the rulebook back at him and shut him up.

I keep my rulebook handy all the time.

Just to be clear:

1) the racer in question is not a bully off the race course! I think he is aggressive on the course but I am too... the point I see is the rules when followed should keep things safe and fair.
2) he actually reported he did a 360 soemtime after hitting the mark... the problem is he didn't do it as soon as possible in my estimation. I saw them sailing and it looked like they had steerage, I watched for at least 3 minutes as they sailed 5 boat lengths while I called out protest...please do a turn for hitting mark...I watched for 5 more boat lengths and.it still didn't happem I talked to him after the race and he said they were discussing where they should do the turn or not and it took a while. Apparently it happened once they got a little more speed. I think that it would have taken longer to do the turn promptly as there was a wind shadow near the mark.

puddinlegs · #7 (**permalink**) 07-14-2010

Simple. Even if is tacking onto starboard, he has to leave you room to keep clear. He must have completed his tack (sails drawing, not just past head to wind. Until then, he has no rights. ) Photo's won't help and are rarely allowed in the room. Diagrams, distance, etc... are everything. The only thing he says to you (and visa versa) is "protest", and hoist your red flag immediately. Best is to keep it on the backstay with a piece of velcro or the like that simple has to be slid down to deploy the flag. From there out, "it's see you in the room". It sounds like he tacked too close to you, but without a diagram, it's tough to say.

ste27 · #8 (**permalink**) 07-15-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by puddinlegs

Simple. Even if is tacking onto starboard, he has to leave you room to keep clear. He must have completed his tack (sails drawing, not just past head to wind. Until then, he has no rights. ) Photo's won't help and are rarely allowed in the room. Diagrams, distance, etc... are everything. The only thing he says to you (and visa versa) is "protest", and hoist your red flag immediately. Best is to keep it on the backstay with a piece of velcro or the like that simple has to be slid down to deploy the flag. From there out, "it's see you in the room". It sounds like he tacked too close to you, but without a diagram, it's tough to say.

Sails do not need to be drawing - the boat needs to be on course, sails in that case are irrelevant

paulk · #9 (**permalink**) 07-16-2010

A "delayed" turn is OK; it does not have to be done immediately. Boats doing their 360's DO need to be clear of others because while they're exonerating themselves (like boats that are over early) they don't really have rights. They're supposed to get clear of other boats at the earliest opportunity and then make their turn(s).

Bullying is calling "protest" to scare someone off what they're doing, even when what they're doing is perfectly permitted. Bullying is calling "protest", flying "B", and then not filing a protest. Bullying is making disparaging remarks about someone else's boat, sails, crew, girlfriend... Bullying is a skipper barging at the start because he knows no one will dare risk damaging their own boat to cut him off. Aggressive is OK. Bullying is not.

killarneyonthelake · #10 (**permalink**) 07-20-2010

The race committee discussed the situation and the consensus was that
a) a protest was made that you interfered with the boat on starboard tack, he protested this interference and near collision and you had the option of
(1) doing a 720 turn or
(2) counter-protesting that you had not been given sufficient time to maneuver or
(3) disqualify yourself . You took none of these actions.

b) A boat was fouled by port tacking boat at the mark . It consequently drifted into the mark and could have protested but still should have done, and in fact did do, the 360 turn. You initially claimed that the boat did not do a 360 turn and called the 5 crew members liars for which you later apologized. You then claimed that they took too long to do the turn.
No positions were changed or advantage gained between the time of the touching of the mark and the time of the turn. The helm says that the boat had no hull speed and she was not able to complete a penalty turn immediately. The boat was moving because it was in current and the deflated sails were proof of this. Your contention that a penalty turn should/could be made by a boat in this position was not supported. The helm reports making her penalty turn upon reaching 1.5 kts, approx 200 meters from the mark..