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  #11  
Old 08-26-2010
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BTW, I know the Melges and Tigers are frac's... I was just bringing up that they are PHRF killers.
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
BTW, I know the Melges and Tigers are frac's... I was just bringing up that they are PHRF killers.
Brian,

Not sure which model Melges that was -- but the M24 is fractionally rigged with a masthead asym spinaker (flown from a sprit). So there's a good example of a fractional/masthead combo.

We had fun with ours - we never hit 20 knots like some folks have, but we came close several times. When the keel is humming like that, it's an awesome sound.
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRPollard View Post
(on the Melges) We had fun with ours - we never hit 20 knots like some folks have, but we came close several times. When the keel is humming like that, it's an awesome sound.
Occasionally followed by the equally awesome wipeout?!?!?
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2010
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Occasionally followed by the equally awesome wipeout?!?!?
In our case, more than just occasionally.
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  #15  
Old 08-27-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Good topic CD. I've been wondering the same thing. I'd like to get a kite for the Smacktanic this spring - so this helps understand things a bit better.

Personally, I like the simplicity of the masthead. Like I need anything more complicated like running backstays at this point!
As COOL stated, many masthead rigs do have check stays - we do, but mainly use those when it's blowing 30+ knots. It's not really a great complication, but "just" something you need to remember.
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  #16  
Old 08-27-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I can talk more about this tomorrow hopefully, but we had a Tiger and a Melges with a Asym that KICKED OUT BUTTS! Very light air, but shifty, which made the Asym awesome. It was a masthead. Manhy of teh racers were saying that fractional was a thing of the past. Me, I just lusted after the Melges...

But good food for thought and makes a good discussion.

B
What kind of boat are you sailing? It is similarly rated to the boats you mentioned? Sport boats... very low weight and wetted surface area. I'm a regular on a 39' boat that's absolutely runner dependent, tallish carbon rig ( I:50.20’ J: 14.53’ P: 51.90’ E: 19.03’ ISP:52.17’ SPL:15.75’ ) 10,500 lbs displacement), very fast, but is just out of the sport boat displacement numbers and without masthead assy kites. We owe them time, but sail boat for boat in the really light stuff. Give us any breeze over 4-5 kts though, and we're gone. The only exception is a very well sailed Melges 32 which are always just blazing fast and will crush any Flying Tiger/ Farr 30/Henderson 30 etc... any day of the week hung over and sick. There are just so many variables (displacement, wetted surface, design era, rule being raced under, etc...) that mast head vs. this or that is a hard one to work with exclusively. Indeed, newer GP boats are fractional w/ masthead spinnakers, sometimes assy only, and sometimes both depending on what the box rule or rating committee says, which leads to a whole different dimension of the argument; many of these rig 'optimizations' are rule driven.We're much much faster than a state of the art fractionally rigged (or masthead rigged for that matter) IOR design of equal length. Even GP boats like TP 52's, Open class boats, etc... have rules limiting to their sail inventories that drive rig and sail choice/design, but they are all fractional.... rumors of their obsolescence are little pre-mature.

Last edited by puddinlegs; 08-27-2010 at 08:27 AM.
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Old 08-27-2010
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I would say that since almost every new leading edge racing design is fractionally rigged, and nearly all new production cruising designs are fractionally rigged, the rumors of the fractional rig's demise is premature.

That said there are a lot of aberations that show up in race boats that are rule driven (such the current spate of flat top mainsails).

But if you were designing a boat for speed, efficiency, and ease of handling across a broad range of windspeeds, it would still be a fractional rig with a minimally overlapping headsail and with a choice of using both masthead and fractional hoist chutes. Whether or not these chutes are asymmetrical or symmetrical is dependent on the sailing venue and the L/D of the boat, with lighter boats rarely needing a symmetrical chute while a heavier displacement boat really benefits from having a symmetrical chute. More later.

Jeff
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  #18  
Old 08-28-2010
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if you can fly masthead spins and genoas from a fractional rig (?) then isn't it a masthead rig?
As one opinion indicated, its all a matter of boat design and purpose. To each his own.
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  #19  
Old 08-28-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmunger View Post
if you can fly masthead spins and genoas from a fractional rig (?) then isn't it a masthead rig?
......
To me, the mast head vs fractional is NOT the spin portion of the rig, but the main and jib. If the jib is not pulled to the mast head, then it is a fractional. Some 15/16 fractionals have mast head kites as std. Others in the 3/4 range, can do either mast or fractional kites. A couple of local boats, have choose to take the rating hit with a mast head kit, do exceptionally well, along with having a cheater kite out of 1.5-2oz cloth for windier days. Advantages to both set ups as many mention.

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  #20  
Old 08-28-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmunger View Post
if you can fly masthead spins and genoas from a fractional rig (?) then isn't it a masthead rig?
Fractional boats don't fly genoas from the masthead... they're typically not designed for the load going to weather. On the other hand, some can carry a masthead spinnaker and something like a Code O within certain wind ranges. But even that depends on the particulars of the rig design.
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