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2013 America's Cup

15K views 80 replies 25 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 · (Edited)
I had posted this post on the thread about 2010 America cup. I will continue here, sice we are talking about the 2013 edition:

It is not official but I have heard that the next cup will be raced on big cats (77ft) with a fixed wing.

I don't mind the cats, but I am affraid that the budget to build and race those machines would be so big that most of the teams would have no means to compete.

Regards

Paulo
Well, its is official now. The Cup is going to be raced on big and expensive cats with a fixed wing (72ft boat with a 130ft mast).

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/ggyccnr34-multihull-2013-americas-cup-transformed-details-10035.php

http://www.cupinfo.com/en/ggyccnr34-new-ac72-catamaran-for-2013-americas-cup-10036.php

But they have promised a level playing field:

"Russell Coutts and Larry Ellison [head of BMW Oracle] promised Challengers a level playing field - giving teams a fair chance of winning; neutral event management and cost containment."

http://www.asser.nl/Default.aspx?site_id=11&level1=13914&level2=13931&textid=38163

Well, it seems that it was not only me that had doubts about that fixed wing, costs and ability to compete at equal terms. I have said that I was afraid that the budget to build and race those machines would be too big for most of the teams to compete in equal terms.

It seems I was right. One of the main contenders, the British (Teamorigin) just pulled out from the next cup. They say:

Britain is pulling out of one of the pinnacle events in world yacht racing, the America's Cup:

"A shortage of both cash and time have persuaded the boss of Team Origin, Sir Keith Mills, to abandon hopes of challenging the current holder, the San Francisco-based BMW-Oracle, in 2013.... I am bitterly disappointed that we will not be competing. The format and timetable decided by the defender is simply not viable." ...

It is believed that, apart from the Italian challenger of record, Vincenzo Onorato's Mascalzone Latino, the Swedish Artemis team and Team New Zealand, many other potential challengers have been daunted.

Simmer recently told The Independent that he thought the budget needed to win was well in excess of £100m " (USD 160,000,000).

Team Origin pull out of America's Cup - Sailing, More Sports - The Independent

Regards

Paulo
 
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#2 ·
The AC is becoming very 'sad' as the clear advantage automatically goes to those with the 'deepest pockets' and excludes those who cant afford the meteoric rising costs to 'play'.

This is not 'racing', it's 'bluffing with money'; bluffing with so much money that all the other competitors are forced to 'fold'. The name of the AC should be changed to "I Can Spend More Dough, Than You Can - Cup".
 
#10 ·
The AC is becoming very 'sad' as the clear advantage automatically goes to those with the 'deepest pockets' and excludes those who cant afford the meteoric rising costs to 'play'.

This is not 'racing', it's 'bluffing with money'; bluffing with so much money that all the other competitors are forced to 'fold'. The name of the AC should be changed to "I Can Spend More Dough, Than You Can - Cup".
+1

Any competition where lawyers need to get involved takes a little wind out of the sails for me. Whatever happened to racing being a gentleman's sport?

It seems the AC has lost it's way and it's not the mettle of the crew that captures the cup but how technologically advanced the boat is. Might as well have armchair helmsman operating a joystick from a remote location.

I would like to see the AC get back to racing one design monohulls since it's what most of us can relate to.
 
#3 ·
Well I guess it was the cost that ultimately killed off the J-Boats which led post WWII to the 12 metres and the post war resurgence that made the AmCup the prestigious event that it once again became.

Personally I find the idea of spending USD150.000.000 on a boat race obscene. Particularly as none of it ends up in my pocket. :)

Problem is I guess that mono hull match racing makes for pretty boring TV. Funnily enough of course the fastest AMCup boats of all time failed to get any TV coverage in many parts of the world.
 
#7 ·
...
Personally I find the idea of spending USD150.000.000 on a boat race obscene. :)

Problem is I guess that mono hull match racing makes for pretty boring TV. Funnily enough of course the fastest AMCup boats of all time failed to get any TV coverage in many parts of the world.
Andrews,

The problem is not the money. Sir Keith Mills, from the Origin team explains correctly the problem:"The format and timetable decided by the defender is simply not viable."

By viable format he means that as it is proposed there is no way for the AC to be economically viable. This means that the race will not be able to generate the money (publicity and broadcasting rights) to pay itself (and each of the boats).

If the race could generate enough money to pay a reasonable number of $160M campaigns, I would not see any problem with it.

As it is, as RichH have said :"The AC is becoming very 'sad' as the clear advantage automatically goes to those with the 'deepest pockets' and excludes those who can't afford the meteoric rising costs to 'play'."

Regarding Monohulls versus Multihulls I would like to point out that the previous edition (monohulls) generated a lot more public interest (a lot is not enough to express the difference) than the last one ( multihulls).

I was in Valencia both times and you cannot imagine how miserable poor was the last edition.

Public interest means money!!!!and money means that the teams are paid with that money.

I believe that both monohulls and multihulls can make interesting races if the boats are fast and spectacular. But for interesting races it is also needed a considerable number of contenders and boats and teams very close on performance.

The chosen boats will be fast and spectacular, but we are going to have boring races if the contenders are only one or two, with no matched performances.

Regards

Paulo
 
#5 · (Edited)
This 2010 America's Cup was the first all multi hull event. Dennis Connor (Stars and Stripes US-1) previously raced one against the Big Boat , New Zealand (KZ-1), a 120' monohull in 1988.
 
#6 · (Edited)
America's Cup has gone back to being a rich man's, elitist sport. Done now by professional sailors to win a trophy for the wealthiest who can afford it.

I watched the recent Cup race and was awed by the technology and at the same time saddened. Amazing technology but I think the spirit of the thing has been lost and gone back to nothing but an item of prestige and ego.

Admittedly, if I had Larry Ellison's money, I'd be doing the exact same thing. But after having gotten my fill of having the Cup for a few years and shown it off and lapsing into demented fantasy, I'd declare the next challenge for the Cup would be raced by 2-3 man dinghies that would have to made out of materials found at Home Depot except for sails, which would have to be cotton. Only standard wire rigging and conventional polyester lines allowed. Let the fun ensue! Competitive for the biggest yacht clubs and syndicates down to the backyard boatbuilder and their friends.

That would be a race and contest worth watching. It would be the biggest Challenge in history. The money I would save from building the super racer I would use to buy prime time slots to broadcast it to everyone.

Matt
 
#8 ·
Paulo,
My thinking is that by the time the 2010 challenge finally arrived everyone was bored to tears by the whole fiasco.
Now while the previous event gained more world wide media attention it didn't get a lot of television coverage did it ?
Certainly neither free to air nor cable/satellite picked up the rights in Australia.
I don't know about the rest of world.
One of the problems to be faced is that the Little America's Cup is now indistinguishable from the Big AC in everything except the size of the boats and the multi hull regatta that was held recently (I forget the name) also takes away from the AC.
Me, I reckon what fuels the AC is nationalism. This last schemozzle took that away. While everyone should have been cheering on the Swiss underdog v the might of the Evil Empire, Bertarelli managed to alienate almost the entire planet. What a nonsense.
 
#9 · (Edited)
....
Now while the previous event gained more world wide media attention it didn't get a lot of television coverage did it ?
Certainly neither free to air nor cable/satellite picked up the rights in Australia.
I don't know about the rest of world.
....
Me, I reckon what fuels the AC is nationalism. This last schemozzle took that away. While everyone should have been cheering on the Swiss underdog v the might of the Evil Empire, Bertarelli managed to alienate almost the entire planet. What a nonsense.
Andrew,

I disagree with your first statement and I agree with the second one.

It is very important that the AC have many contenders from all the world. If we want a world event we have to have participants from all the world and healthy Nationalism has a role to play.

Personally, back on 2007, I was supporting the NZ team and not Alinghy (the European finalist) and I was not the only European doing that. I guess that we really would like to see a billionaire with huge resources been beaten by a much smaller and "poor" team, from a small country with a big racing tradition.:)

Regarding your first statement I don't see that way. In 2007 America's cup was already one of the world's big event, with huge coverage. That edition was the really big one, in public interest (much bigger than the previous). Things where going well for sailing as a sport, and if the 2010 edition was on a continuing route (with bigger and faster, but affordable boats, as it was meant to be) I am quite sure the 2010 edition would have been a much bigger world's sport event (comparing with 2007).

To just give you an idea between the size and importance of the two editions, have a look at some numbers:

2007 edition: Organizing Budget - 230,000,000€
Economic Impact - 7,000,000,000€

2010 edition: Organizing Budget - 8,000,000€
Economic Impact - less than 700,000,000€

And it is important to say that 500,000,000 € where spent on the boats, and less than 200,000,000 on things to do with public interest.

If we take the Organizing Budget as a measure, the last edition was 44 times smaller than the one from 2007 and you could feel that on the coverage and on the spot (Valencia).

The 2007 edition had a 66,000,000 € profit (shared by the 12 teams). the 2010 edition had a huge deficit, a deficit of hundreds millions of euros.

as professor Canon has said, the America's cup : "From being one of the four or five biggest sports events, it's become frankly parochial."

America’s Cup Sinks as Bertarelli-Ellison Fight Sours Santander - Bloomberg

And sadly it seems that the 2013 edition is not going to be much better:(

And Andrews, I don't find this boring:

YouTube - Official Podcast of the 32nd America's Cup: Match day 7

Of course, the boats are "old shoes:D ", but if you changed those by moder fast monohulls or multihulls, bigger but affordable, we would have a great 2013 America's cup.

By the way, why to they insist in call it America's cup? Should not be America cup?

Regards

Paulo
 
#17 ·
Paulo,

I wasn't certain as to how much media attention the 2007 AC (A'sC ?) received world wide. It certainly didn't get much attention in Australia, perhaps only because there was no Australian boat. The last Australian challenge folded....:eek: went down like an ice cold Fosters. :)



If the original winner (John Stevens) named the cup after his boat then it should by rights simply be The Cup America but if his naming was a nod to his boat then yes it should be America's Cup. I suspect he would have intended the cup to be dedicated to the yacht America and so America's Cup would be correct.

Oh yes....just to be clear about it, I really like watching mono hull match racing, be it live or on TV. The multi hull thing is for me a one trick pony. I agree with you that the Cup should be fought between state of the art mono hulls. Quite frankly with much more of an emphasis on national identities.

That is, I fear, a cause that is well and truely lost. Which is sad.
 
#20 ·
I have to admit, I have not looked at the cup since the 12M went away!

Maybe they should use Farr 40's like the Candian cup?!?!? something done in the great lakes tween the US and Canada, might be some other country's involved too. Then it is easy(er) to get country teams together, teams of excellent racers that are not pro, that might be able to beat pro's on any given day too, keep it short, sweet........

Probably not in my life time again......

On the other hand, going with expensive boats as it currently is going, maybe the AC will have new tech to bring down to us lower land peons. Where as it seems like the new tech is coming from the different SH and crewed around the globe races, SH/DH boats in the 30' range of boats or mini transats for that matter.

Then again, my opin and ramblings, does it count?!?!? who knows. In the meantime, I'll continue to listen to BIL complain about elleson upon occasion!

Marty
 
#21 · (Edited)
Other team out:The German will not participate on the 2013 AC.

"In an interview in the German magazine Yacht today, Michael Scheeren, boss of United Internet Team Germany was asked their reasons for pulling out of the 34th edition of the America's Cup.

In summary, despite a starting budget (20 million Euros) they pulled out for two main reasons: the considerable existing advantage of the Americans, and much too high costs.
....
Michael Scheeren's conclusion is that the teams that will take part in this 34th America's Cup are those backed by billionaires who can privately finance challenges, and that there will not be much in the way of sponsorship in addition to this."

SailRaceWin: America's Cup: Team Germany's reasons for Withdrawing

Regards

Paulo
 
#22 ·
If too many teams drop out, frankly, the next cup, despite the intentions of the current cup holder, will end up about as boring as the last cup. At least i can watch on the puter in real time, during the day, vs 1-3am my time when it was in Europe!

A smaller length, still with a foil, would bring more teams etc to the field of play, which is what the cup needs right now. No different than the Vendee globe race, where the sail quantity went down from about 25 to 22 or there a bouts from memory among other cost cutting measures.

marty
 
#23 ·
I still think a lot of you are missing the fundamental point about the cup. It's a yacht race 2nd and a tech race 1st. The mere fact that the boats are able to be changed is the life blood of the event. J Class, 12meters, IAAC, Deed of Gift boats. Please leave one design for the Olympics. The 2010 cup race of the DoG and Cat were all part of the rules been tested and those 2 races were an outstanding display of what the heart of the cup is about, technology gone wild, both yachts are now consigned to history and from that event looking forward, we have 45ft cats been built in Walkworth. 2013 will see 72 hard sail cats dialling down at speed, simply fantastic. The best place to watch it will be on the screen in front of you, the web.
 
#25 ·
I still think a lot of you are missing the fundamental point about the cup. It's a yacht race 2nd and a tech race 1st. ... Please leave one design for the Olympics…..2013 will see 72 hard sail cats dialling down at speed, simply fantastic. ....
I partially agree with you. I would value both items at the same level (the sail race and the tech race). It would make no sense into making it a one design race.

But that is not the point. The point is that the budget and the conditions to raise race sponsorship should permit the participation of many boats from many different creative and innovative boat designer teams and also the participation of teams of all countries and the best world's sailors. The innovations should all go in a sense that develop sailing applications to the boat industry.

What happened and is still happening is that neither the format of the event, neither the type of boat (rigid sail) will permit the participations of teams that found that participation on sponsorship. Therefore it was and it will be a race for millionaires and that is not the best way to develop technology neither the Sport (sailing). The rigid sale is also a technology that will always be so expensive that its development will bring no advantages to the sailboat industry.

And that is what I mean. It will be a millionaire's race or bet, not a sports big international event and that's what America's cup should be, one of the BIG ONES and I don't mean only in what regards sailing, but globally.

To give you an idea, only the sail from BMW oracle cost about $10 millions (and he broke one) and the total cost (nobody knows what was the cost of the boat and its development) is estimated in something over $100 millions. To put that in perspective, the Big multihull (100ft) that has the record of the fastest circumnavigation (Gitana 11) cost about $5 million .

With the money it was spent on BMW Oracle, (that served no other purpose than to be raced once) you could buy the 9 ultimate class racing multihulls (about 100ft) and the 9 Open 60 that are racing in the Route du Rhum and those are among the most expensive and technologically more complex race boats anywhere.

Regards

Paulo
 
#24 ·
Just a thought.
For the "America Cup". Why not have a series of races of the many one design boats from all over the world. A committee would select say a half dozen different designs and that would be the racers of that year. Each design group would race as a class for several races with each boat accumulating a score both for the class and for the total cup score. The winner would be the country with the highest total score of all the races. New designs could be summited as long as the design could be supplied to all who desired to race them. Any country or group could purchase or build a boat as long as it fit the exact limits of the one design but each selected design would have to have boats entered from 75% of the total number of countries entered. That way we would get the advancments in technology. The "Extreme" designs of the Megabucks type would have little interest to most countries or groups faced with the cost of building or purchasing a craft that probably wouldn't make the number limit.
With each class having a winner, "Little A Cups", could provide emphatess for further envolment by smaller counties while the national pride of winning The America Cup is still there. The winning of crews head to head on one design boats proves their mettle and skill. Crews from small clubs and groups as well as the large clubs would compete head to head on one design boats for the honor to compete representing their country. Now that would be a competition that would get grass roots attention. Boats just like down at the local marina. On cup week, several classes could be raced at the same time giving the media something to flip back and forth to so not to be "as interesting as watching paint dry".
Like I said something to think about.
 
#26 ·
While I'd still like to see the AC in monos rather than multis what is most important, indeed absolutely vital. is that the AC must be fought in a uniquely AC boat. It is a developement class after all. To go out and do it in a an existing one design woul be fatal. IMHO.
 
#27 ·
Paulo,

The AC is not for millionaires any more, try BILLIONaires! only!

The cost of the last boat is ridiculous as you say. There could be great races, with improvements to sailing etc, with boats in the 10-20Mill range ea. Heck, I am recalling the V70 boats having limits to keep more than less teams doing the race.

I have not really watched it much since the 12M went away. The ACC boats were not bad either. but these new things. beyond what I am sure most of feel are affordable, much less, one race wonders! I'd luv to own one of the old 12M boats, not that i could afford one, but still..........

marty
 
#28 · (Edited)
The next edition of the America's cup is becoming more and more interesting:rolleyes: :

"Alinghi, two times winner of the America's Cup, has today announced that it will not enter a team in the 34th edition of the prestigious sailing trophy ....

After a careful evaluation of the protocol and other initiatives taken by the American Defender and its Challenger of Record, Alinghi considers that the existing conditions make it impossible for the team to participate in the 34th America's Cup."
...

Two-times winner Alinghi will not compete at next America's Cup in 2013 - Telegraph

Sail-World.com : Alinghi exits the 34th America's Cup but stays with catamaran circuit
Regards

Paulo

PS. can one of the mods change the title of this thread for "2013 America's cup". It seems that I can't.
 
#32 ·
No, I don't think that what you say is the motive. I believe that the reason is the same that lead several other teams to retire:

As have already been said by a lot of more knowledgeable guys, simply there is no way to fund that event (the way it is proposed), and the costs of the participants on sponsorship and TV and internet revenues. This means that this is not going to be a professional sail event (meaning that it cannot be self-sustained), but another amateur billionaire second rate race.

Regards

Paulo
 
#33 ·
It is too bad that the cup will not be done with the 40' cats vs the 80'ish foot ones, the more teams could/would get involved. Make them all one design or as close to it as possible, not working with in a box rule. This would make it WAY WAY more interesting frankly.

I do wish things would get back to the days of the 12M races. the boat had to be designed, built in, crew by the country(s) challenging. Otherwise, yes, it is a spoiled billionaire individual/company that once they get it, it is theirs to deal with, At least when it was at NYC for the 80-100 yrs, things did seem reasonably even the last many years. There did seem to be a time like today, ie J boat time frame, that it did boil down like today, the most exclusive person could afford to do the race. Until it gets back to something normal folks can connect with, it's not worth but noting in my book. I'd rather watch and see how the Volvo 70's are doing in the round the world races, sydney hobart, the figaroo solo races etc. These you seem to have what I would call real teams, where anything can go, they watch out for ea other, cheer ea other on etc.

Marty
 
#34 ·
A couple of things . .

Let's face it, the AC is a technology race, it has been for decades. One of the more interesting parts of past campaigns has, for me, always been "What are they going to do to their boat to make it faster?" The anticipation of a boat on the hard with a skirt hiding the underwater bits was an important part of the event. Without that, well, we already have the world match racing champs which is raced in identical boats etc. Who needs another one of those?

But that said, the absence of a realistic financial cap that others can afford is simply the defender buying the next race and it will ultimately kill the AC because the cost is simply unaffordable for many of the best competitors. Whilst I'm not authorised to speak for Team New Zealand, the fact is simple: they cannot afford to compete. New Zealand as a country has a total population of 4m people, less than most large cities. If every man, woman and child contributed $25 we could just about afford the boat. In a country like the US, such a contribution would bring in about $7.7 billion.

So essentially the format that we see Coutts and his Crazy Cronies putting together is nothing more than an act of cowardice. It's the only way they can compete, by financially killing off the competition. It makes many New Zealanders ashamed to admit that Coutts is one.

And aside of being able to afford it, it is not financially viable. No sponsor simply donates money. There has to be a measurable payback. With the proposed AC format there is inadequate payback. It is no surprise then that organisations like ETNZ are looking at Volvo and Med Cup series. Here they can compete with their skill, not just their cheque book and they can retain their sponsorships by winning, not by having the 4th richest man in the world as a cash-flush benefactor.

But these are "just another yacht race" . . . . there will not be millions of people tuning in to watch them take place. They will never emulate the AC.

And so, off my soap box.
 
#35 ·
A couple of things . .

Let's face it, the AC is a technology race, it has been for decades. One of the more interesting parts of past campaigns has, for me, always been "What are they going to do to their boat to make it faster?" The anticipation of a boat on the hard with a skirt hiding the underwater bits was an important part of the event. Without that, well, we already have the world match racing champs which is raced in identical boats etc. Who needs another one of those?

But that said, the absence of a realistic financial cap that others can afford is simply the defender buying the next race and it will ultimately kill the AC because the cost is simply unaffordable for many of the best competitors. Whilst I'm not authorised to speak for Team New Zealand, the fact is simple: they cannot afford to compete. New Zealand as a country has a total population of 4m people, less than most large cities. If every man, woman and child contributed $25 we could just about afford the boat. In a country like the US, such a contribution would bring in about $7.7 billion.

So essentially the format that we see Coutts and his Crazy Cronies putting together is nothing more than an act of cowardice. It's the only way they can compete, by financially killing off the competition. It makes many New Zealanders ashamed to admit that Coutts is one.

And aside of being able to afford it, it is not financially viable. No sponsor simply donates money. There has to be a measurable payback. With the proposed AC format there is inadequate payback. It is no surprise then that organisations like ETNZ are looking at Volvo and Med Cup series. Here they can compete with their skill, not just their cheque book and they can retain their sponsorships by winning, not by having the 4th richest man in the world as a cash-flush benefactor.

But these are "just another yacht race" . . . . there will not be millions of people tuning in to watch them take place. They will never emulate the AC.

And so, off my soap box.
Well said.

It is a sad thing to see the AC going down after having managed to be one of the world's top sports events. The loss is for all the sailing community.

Regards

Paulo
 
#38 ·
The venue won't need to be very big . . . . . . . only one boat, one umpire, one support vessel for the family of the crew, maybe a TV crew.

Why would anyone else turn up?
 
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