Start rule question different fleets - Page 2

hellosailor · #11 11-25-2010

"I don't think I would have been such a jerk as to"
See now, that's the difference between yachtsmen and commoners. Since Boat B would have lost nothing by allowing Boat A to complete their best late start, Boat B is guilty of "ungentlemently conduct" or "unsportsmanlike conduct".
I haven't read the most recent Racing Rules but yes, it used to be that an RC could penalize you for unsportsmanlike conduct, simply for being a rude boor or jerk.

OTOH, a burdened boat is a burdened boat, and if someone simply holds you to your burden...that's life. The protest committee won't thank you for complaining about it.

Hartley18 · #12 11-25-2010

Hopefully this will sort it out once and for all. From the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2009-2012:

I really don't understand why Boat A didn't call Boat B up, since the windward boat must keep clear:

Quote:

11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat.

...but anyways:

Quote:

2 FAIR SAILING
A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. A disqualification under this rule shall not be excluded from the boat’s series score.

Quote:

23 INTERFERING WITH ANOTHER BOAT
23.1 If reasonably possible, a boat not racing shall not interfere with a boat that is racing.

Racing: A boat is racing from her preparatory signal until she finishes and clears the finishing line and marks or retires...

In other words, technically, both boats were racing and, unless Boat A had grounds to protest Boat B on Rule 2 (which she might, IF you were winning the series at the time and IF you wanted to be a real p****)...

That's life!!

I hope that helps.

NotQuiteCapnRon · #13 11-25-2010

Quote:

Just to be clear. In this scenario, was boat B running parallel to the line and boat A was close hauled trying to start? Then did Boat B cut off Boat A and force him down the line

Exactly!

I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.

Thanks

Hartley18 · #14 11-25-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotQuiteCapnRon

Exactly!

I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.

Thanks

If two boats are on the same tack, the windward boat has to keep clear of the leeward boat, but, unfortunately, a hail that "I'm trying to start!" isn't likely to get a positive response...

My take on it is that, under this scenario, Rule 2 (above) is all you've got.. since you were both "racing" at the time. If a collision occured he'd most likely have been in the wrong.

US27inKS · #15 11-25-2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotQuiteCapnRon

Exactly!

I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.

Thanks

By the rules, boat B was wrong and should have been protested. While it would be technically correct to protest him, I don't think I would have. Boat A was already 3 minutes late, and could have easily eased a bit to slow down and let boat B get by. Then sheet back in and you're off to the races 3:15 late instead of whatever you were after all the commotion. After all, aren't we talking about racing for bragging rights and plastic trophies? Neither of which are going to be won 3 minutes late to the line.

Being a good sport (and it doesn't sound like boat B's driver is) is more important than being right, especially if I have no chance of winning. A good example of this was a couple of years ago on a very light air day. The wind shifted enough that we were close hauled to the reaching mark. A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think he won, but he had a fighting chance. It took me a bit to recover from going too low, but the faster boats in my fleet were long gone so it really didn't matter. Later at the clubhouse the other sailor told everyone what a great guy I am. Better than a plastic trophy any day.

NotQuiteCapnRon · #16 11-26-2010

Thanks guys....Most of what has been contributed to this string is pretty much what I thought too, but I really couldn't find a rule other than 2 or 23 as mentioned. What I get from the opinions here is Boat A is an unintentional Jerk and Boat B is a Jerk on purpose.

No one was protested...Whether in the right or wrong, Boat B skipper likes to work things out on the water and not burden the CB with BS.

tommays · #17 11-26-2010

"Yachts shall keep clear of the starting line or its extensions by a minimum of 30 yards after the initial Warning signal is made and until the Warning signal is made for their division start. Offending yachts may be protested."

When we go into sequence it involves 45 boats in 5 divisions and keeping OUT of the starting area out of sequence is just the only way it can work as its enough of a fire drill with the 8 to 10 boats that belong there

"A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think"

I think pulling over so to speak to allow a boat that put themselves in a bad position to improve there finish is not really to fair the other boats in that division AND THEN THERE IS RULE 17

paulk · #18 11-26-2010

Quote:

... No one was protested...Whether in the right or wrong, Boat B skipper likes to work things out on the water and not burden the CB with BS.

If Boat B likes to work things out on the water, then he should know his rules better for next time. Boat A should have seen him coming and gone around his transom (already suggested) or taken him up to the moon, as leeward boat.

paulk · #19 11-26-2010

Quote:

When we go into sequence it involves 45 boats in 5 divisions and keeping OUT of the starting area out of sequence is just the only way it can work as its enough of a fire drill with the 8 to 10 boats that belong there "

So a boat that had crew stuck in traffic on the LIE, and which arrives at the starting area 30 seconds after their starting signal, has to wait a half hour, for all the other boats to start, before she begins her race?

"I think pulling over so to speak to allow a boat that put themselves in a bad position to improve there finish is not really to fair the other boats in that division AND THEN THERE IS RULE 17

Will you still agree with this on a light air day as you catch up to, but then are unable to pass the last Atlantic (the one with the foul bottom?) on the course, and your competitors in the J/24 fleet slip by the two of you?

Rule 17 ? Boat A's proper course is pointing as high as she possibly can, to try to get to the windward mark. She has started. Boat B apparently prevented her from sailing her proper course, and should have been protested. Boat B, before her starting signal, has no proper course.

tommays · #20 11-27-2010

A good sportsman will live with the consequences of there mistakes and not involve others

Will you still agree with this on a light air day as you catch up to, but then are unable to pass the last Atlantic (the one with the foul bottom?) on the course, and your competitors in the J/24 fleet slip by the two of you?

I would be covering the other boats in my division and if i was in the above position i would have to live with the consequences of the POOR tactics involved in putting MYSELF there

Rule 17 ? Boat A's proper course is pointing as high as she possibly can, to try to get to the windward mark. She has started. Boat B apparently prevented her from sailing her proper course, and should have been protested. Boat B, before her starting signal, has no proper course.

There is no rule 17 before the start

"A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think"

Rule 17 was broken HERE we gotta follow all THE RULES

This other A-B thing involved a LOT more than 2 boats or they would have had no problem getting over the line