new headsails for frac rig sizing advice - SailNet Community

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  #1  
Old 07-08-2011
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new headsails for frac rig sizing advice

Thanks for previous replies on my recent two posts. Very useful advice

Got a 26 foot 7/8 frac rig sloop, 1979, about 3 metric tonne on the crane, cruiser racer.
Looking for a more speed at club racing, we currently use a furlex roller genoa 150% which doesnt go well upwind at all, looking to start using our dual slot foil and remove furler for races so we can choose which headsail for conditions, and possibly do peel changes if conditions are right, we need new sails anyway, so will keep the current ap genoa for cruising and look at getting a new main and headsails, the headsails would go on foil only so could go with a longer luff closer to the deck with furler drum removed, what im debating and would appreciate comments on is what size of headsails to get, probably limited to two or possibly 3 but more likely two, would need a 150% for light air, so that leaves a decision on what % to make the other 1 or 2? im guessing 110% ish but open to suggestions


the sailmaker says a no.3 sail can be made of dacron as its a heavier cut sail and stretch doesnt affect it so much & 150% can be a more racey high modulus material, so may be able to save on the no.3 size, is it worth having a no2 (130% ish) size sail too or do must club racers manage ok with two sails?

any feedback on what wind ranges would be required to hit hull speed with the smaller jibs? for upwind & reach, i know this will differ with boats but any thoughts appreciated.

Has anyone else made this change and found it a benefit?

thanks for now

Bob
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Old 07-08-2011
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Bob, I too have a frac rig. My 2 cents, start with the main that is your primary "engine" I read in your other post that it doesn't come all the way back on the boom?, it should. I'd go with a moderate/high roach main.

Unless your sails are completely sacked you should do pretty well upwind however rig tuning is very important with frac rigs. Check this carefully and find out how others tune the rig. I've read everything I could find on frac rig tunning, J30's, tarten 10's, pearson flyer's all frac rig boats with tuning advice.

I sail with a 135% genny and main and can carry that up to about 25 knots. I club and weekend race and do pretty good with this. The 135 is a small sacrifice in whisper winds but once over 5 knots it fills fine. Hope this helps.

John
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Old 07-08-2011
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Oysterbob, where do you race? Typical winds? How many crew do you have on your 26 footer? Are they heavy, like 200+lbs / person? Or on the light side? What boat do you have? What rules do you race under? PHRF of the Ches Bay lets me carry a 155% w/o a penalty. If that's the case w/ you, get the 155 as you #1. No reason to give up 5% if you don't have to.

In the chesapeake bay (usually 5-10 or 20+ on a rare occasion) I do ok with a 155% and a 100% but my boat is 3000 lbs. Haven't had a huge need for a #2, but when it's 13-17 it sure would be nice. What are your typical conditions YOU race in? You'll probably be able to do just fine with 2 sails at the club level.

What's your budget? What halyards do you have? And do you change your rig tune to suite the conditions? Reason I ask about rig tune, is you can usually see the more serious racers doing this before a regatta. It can help power up a #1 in really light air or help depower it when you're trying to hold on.

I have a technora #1 from Quantum in annapolis that I bought in the summer of 2009. It's been a great sail and I've beat the hell out of it. Which is one major reason I chose technora over kevlar or carbon. It puts up with being folded and flogged a little better. I also told the sailmaker I wanted to get 3 seasons out of it with great shape, so it was built a little heavier. It's flaked after every race and washed w/ fesh water when needed. Cost was just under $2000 for my Merit 25. A little high, but that's annapolis for ya.

The #3 can be built out of dacron, but I would reserve dacron for a #4 you'll never really use unless it's 30+ out there. Then you need to ask yourself, and the RC, if you'll ever race in 30+. Most will postpone or not go out, so the #4 is a waste. A good laminate #3 with battens will last a very long time, easily 5+ years on the bay with great shape, if taken care of.

Will you be rolling your sails or flaking them? If flaking, I haven't seen a 3DL that was older than 3 years that didn't have delamination problems. Great light air sails, but that wasn't for me. I needed something that lasted a bit longer.

For the main, you can do a dacron laminate, or a laminate. If you have delivery/cruising sails already, no reason not to go all out on the 'race' sails. Roll the mainsail if at all possible. All sails should be rolled, but its a royal PITA.

Talk to 3 sailmakers and get quotes. See how they treat you, do they return your email and phone calls in a reasonable amount of time? Are their prices fair? All sailmakers should come down to the boat and measure it themselves. This shouldn't need to be said, but if a sailmaker wants you to measure for new sails, walk away and find another.
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Old 07-08-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oysterbob View Post
Thanks for previous replies on my recent two posts. Very useful advice

Got a 26 foot 7/8 frac rig sloop, 1979, about 3 metric tonne on the crane, cruiser racer.
Looking for a more speed at club racing, we currently use a furlex roller genoa 150% which doesnt go well upwind at all, looking to start using our dual slot foil and remove furler for races so we can choose which headsail for conditions, and possibly do peel changes if conditions are right, we need new sails anyway, so will keep the current ap genoa for cruising and look at getting a new main and headsails, the headsails would go on foil only so could go with a longer luff closer to the deck with furler drum removed, what im debating and would appreciate comments on is what size of headsails to get, probably limited to two or possibly 3 but more likely two, would need a 150% for light air, so that leaves a decision on what % to make the other 1 or 2? im guessing 110% ish but open to suggestions


the sailmaker says a no.3 sail can be made of dacron as its a heavier cut sail and stretch doesnt affect it so much & 150% can be a more racey high modulus material, so may be able to save on the no.3 size, is it worth having a no2 (130% ish) size sail too or do must club racers manage ok with two sails?

any feedback on what wind ranges would be required to hit hull speed with the smaller jibs? for upwind & reach, i know this will differ with boats but any thoughts appreciated.

Has anyone else made this change and found it a benefit?

thanks for now

Bob
Bob, you've asked the same questions on both threads. Reaching hull speed is about having the right sails and the right winds. It's very hard to hit hull speed when you're trying to point, period. On a close reach, sure, but not sailing close hauled. What matters is your speed and gauge relative to other boats. Sails? Talk to 2 or 3 sailmakers as ask for advice and quotes. As mentioned in the previous thread, at a minimum, you'll need an AP (all purpose) #1 and a blade (#3). If local conditions are usually light, then spend the money on the 1 and go with a dacron blade. If you're in San Francisco or other windier venues, then spring for a laminate #3 as well. A #2 is an odd duck. It's not used that frequently for crewed racing, but can be a great sail if you're planning to single or double hand. Put it lower on your priority list for now, or see if you can find a half decent used one. For most club racers, you can save some money by going with a tri-radial paneled sail rather than a purely form molded sail. You'll lose very very little in performance and gain some durability. All that said, you need a good main and some sort of AP spinnaker, probably a runner. Again, talk to local sail makers. Talk to the top boats in your local fleet and ask their advice. You're new to all this, so even when you get your new sails, you're still going to have a big learning curve on how to get the most out of your new sails. Don't forget the bottom of your boat and rig tune. There's no simple solution to optimizing boat performance. It's an ongoing multi-variable calculus of cost/benefit/performance analysis. The 'performance' is both yours and the crew's. I sailed a couple of times on a boat that had been perfectly prepped: new sails, bottom job, etc... but the driving was pretty bad. The owner wasn't a good listener, nor did he ever share the helm with experienced drivers that could have made him a much better helmsman by spending some time just watching and asking questions. In the end, he wasn't humble enough. Make manageable goals for the season and realize that it's going to take two or three seasons before you start being consistently competitive. Practice, practice, practice, and you'll get there faster.

Last edited by puddinlegs; 07-08-2011 at 01:22 PM.
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