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  #1  
Old 08-29-2011
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Rough rounding.

Let me set up the clip:

First, in full disclosure, I’m the idiot on the mainsheet…Don’t know what I was thinking.

We’re on a broad reach, port tack, getting ready to jibe around the first pin. The rounding will put us on a beam reach, starboard tack. The boat is an Irwin 39, we are in 18~20 knots of wind, main full up and a #1 out front. We are a little overpowered, but having a blast. Watch the horizon for an indication of heel.

Go ahead and watch the clip, and when you get done laughing, see if you can answer a couple of questions for me.

Rough rounding - YouTube

OK, have a good laugh?
Realize that only my pride was hurt, and my ego took a bit of a bruising for having it caught on camera.

Question #1. With that much wind I was really worried about having the boom slam to port and causing all kinds of nasty, expensive damage. Obviously, 190 pounds of me was no match for the wind load on the main. When the boom started to go over, I had way more loose sheet in my hands than I intended.

Anyone got a remedy for this?

Question #2. The boat we almost ran over…It was much, much closer than it appeared in the clip. We thought we had given him enough room to round the mark, but he did come out farther than we had anticipated. We had him overlapped by a length on the approach to the mark, played it safe and waited about 2 boat lengths beyond the mark to start our jibe, plus we were several lengths windward of the pin. It appears to me that we powered up quick and he stalled a bit coming around, were on him in an instant. I eased the main and my helmsman fell off to avoid the collision, helm on the other boat came up. Kudos to both drivers, it could have gone much worse.

Still, had a collision occurred, it is the consensus of our crew that we would have been at fault.

Do y’all draw the same conclusion?

In all of the excitement, did you happen to notice we overtook both boats to leeward?

Too bad we gave it all back up on the beat, we couldn’t point well, no inboard genoa track. I took care of that this past weekend.
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Old 08-30-2011
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OK, absent any opinions so far, I'll start it off. I don't see anything particularly embarrassing about what happened. It's a big boat in strong winds, and you were dealing with big loads. You lost your balance, but didn't get hurt, nothing broke. It happens.

It appears to me that the "mistake" was that the traveler wasn't centered before beginning the turn, as it should have been. If the traveler isn't centered, then you can't take as much slack out of the mainsheet. Also, you let the helmsman get ahead of you. In hauling in the mainsheet, you weren't keeping up with his rate of turn, so, when the mainsail gybed, the boom hadn't been brought as close to the centerline of the boat as it should have been. I think that was mostly because of the traveler not being centered in advance.

One other thought. When you fell, your feet weren't under you. You were leaning back, with your feet forward, and, when the mainsheet suddenly went slack, there was nothing under you to stop you from going down. Keep your feet under you. Generally, if you have to use your body weight to that extent, either you're doing something wrong, or you need help from some mechanical advantage.

My brain is still tired from staying up late and adjusting lines during hurricane Irene, so I don't have much of an opinion regarding the rules question, except to say that, based on your description and the video, your boat appears to be burdened, and I can't think of any valid excuse you could have offered if you had hit the other boat.

Last edited by Sailormon6; 08-30-2011 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 08-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweegs View Post

Still, had a collision occurred, it is the consensus of our crew that we would have been at fault.

Do y’all draw the same conclusion?

yes

Last edited by puddinlegs; 08-30-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 08-30-2011
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I am going to have to agree and disagree here.

WRT to the boom on the gybe it appears that the traveller went completely from one side to the other as mentioned above. Perhaps someone lowering the traveller in a more controlled manner or centering as suggested would have helped. It did not appear the sheet was the problem so much as the amount of play in the traveller.

Now I have to disagree. The J boat in the video was the windward boat on the same tack as you and had travelled well past the mark before making its turn. Sailboats turn on the keel not the stern so there was no need to go that far. It is my opinion (and you know how good opinions are) that he sailed past the mark and was in a windward / leeward situation where he no longer had ROW - of course you were overtaking which likely changed that. Regardless I believe the J boat skipper was reckless and caused the situation. Your boat did give way but I would suggest the skipper of the J boat owes the skipper of your boat a drink for giving way ....

Mike
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Last edited by mikehoyt; 08-30-2011 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 08-30-2011
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Didn't the J boat gybe right in front of you? He must have been on a port tack when you had already established a starboard tack. He was the windward boat and obviously had room to round the mark but chose to continue his course beyond the mark which would have required him to manuever to avoid you.
As to the hard gibe, you simply waited too long to gybe over. Look at the jib it is already pulling when you started the gybe and then you let go completely the windward traveller control line allowing the mainsheet car to crash over. Not horrible, just a little late.
Looks like fun. What kind of boat was that?
John
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Old 08-30-2011
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Looking again, I think Mike is right. The J-boat had a poor rounding, but your driver missed the chance to tuck it up inside the J and get above and roll him to windward. I'm guessing both your driver and the jboat driver where distracted by commotion on your respective boats. Such is life. You hate to protest, but if this is repeat behavior by a 'usual suspect' after having been discussed over a beer and nothing has changed, then next time you've got to throw the flag. ANd even if you're right, you still have to do what you can to avoid a collision. If not and there's avoidable contact, you can be tossed as well.

All this is tougher than it looks on film though. I wouldn't say anything on the video is reckless so much as just not well executed. Live and learn. Next time will be smoother.

On the mainsheet, pull over your shoulders, not below. You'll get a greater range of motion i.e., faster and more sheet with each pull... but no really big deal. There wasn't all that much sheet out to begin with.

Last edited by puddinlegs; 08-30-2011 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 08-30-2011
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Whats to laugh at? If this was a race, looks like you guys were passing everyone up
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Old 08-30-2011
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Appreciate the insight folks.

First off, I know the skipper of that boat, hell of a nice guy, and we probably wouldn’t have protested even if we were sure we were in the right. I don’t think there has been a single protest flag in either the spring or summer series. Some boats run a little closer to the edge than most, but even they play mostly by the rules. I’ll chalk this one up to an honest mistake and get my beer after the race tomorrow.

So many rules out there when it comes to rounding a mark, and this being our first year of racing, we’re still trying to learn them all. It’s nice to have video evidence rather than try to explain in text, you can clearly see the events unfold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccriders View Post
Looks like fun. What kind of boat was that?
John
Ours is a 1980 Irwin 39, and at 25,000 lbs, we employ the tonnage rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
On the mainsheet, pull over your shoulders, not below. You'll get a greater range of motion i.e., faster and more sheet with each pull... but no really big deal. There wasn't all that much sheet out to begin with.
Will do, we’ll get that traveler centered prior, and I’ll keep my feet under me, too.

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Originally Posted by sailguy40 View Post
Whats to laugh at? If this was a race, looks like you guys were passing everyone up
I look for the humor in things, I’ve always been sort of the class clown.

We smoke on a reach or run, it’s the beat leg that kills us.

My wife keeps meticulous records of the race. She gets wind speeds from buoy data on the lake.

Winds were 12 gusting to 24 knots.
Leg 1 was a broad reach, almost a run, we averaged 7.2 knots.
Leg 2 was a beam reach, we averaged 7.3 knots.
Leg 3 was a beat, we averaged 5.6 knots and went 2 miles on a 1.2 mile leg.
Leg 4 was a beam reach again, we averaged 7.7 knots.
Top speed was 7.9 knots

Obviously, the beat did us in. We were the #2 boat around the second pin and closing fast on the #1 boat (who flew a spinnaker off the line). We finished 7th out of 8 in our class, but all 8 boats finished within a 5 minute window, 3 minutes corrected.

Our 2 biggest problems were that we didn’t have a genoa lead track inboard last week, so we had to sheet to the toe rail and therefore could only point about 45 degrees to wind, (That has been corrected, the tracks are now in place and ready for tomorrow) and we really needed to reef the main, we had it flat as we could and still had too much weather helm. Live and learn.

Wanna talk about heel?
Here ya go!

Rough rounding.-under-water-1.jpg

Last edited by Tweegs; 08-30-2011 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 08-30-2011
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Agree with Mike, the other boat fouled you guys. I also think I see the problem with your windward legs. At that angle of heel, you are going mostly sideways and will get clobbered. You need to find a way to depower better and keep the boat on it's feet. What do you guys do currently to switch gears when you start back uphill? backstay on? more outhaul? Jib cars back? there are a lot of ways to take some power out of the sails.
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Old 08-31-2011
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From a international Rule Judge - and by the way he said the video "was one of the few that actually showed something useful"

"Mark room is room for boat to sail to a mark and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. The inside boat sailed past the mark before turning, taking more than the mark-room to which she was entitled. Having sailed past the mark, she was now a windward boat and had to keep clear under RRS 11; however, L (the Irwin) might have also been penalized under Rule 14 in the event of contact involving damage."
Personally I am very relieved that my first instinct was correct. If not then I would be very dangerous on a race course

Mike
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