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  #11  
Old 02-24-2012
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Smart Pig,
As you should be able to tell I'm not really clear on what an 'obstruction' is in the rules. Now I know I can throw my anchor over in order to become an obstruction. I guess if you are motoring then you are not an obstruction but obstructing? :G

The rules are so arcane sometimes as SimonV suggests. Since I don't know all the nuances of the RR my gut reaction is always to avoid a collision at all costs. This naivete does invite those who know the rules more intricately to take advantage sometimes. The RR don't always seem to avoid the inevitable bump and grind which is a lot different then mindset of always trying to arrive at your destination safely and without collisions or confrontations with other boats.
The more I learn the scarier it gets!

Yes, the UK Halsey site is pretty detailed about the RR.
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  #12  
Old 02-24-2012
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Simon

Most of the rules derive off of three BASIC principles:

1. Starboard boat has rights over Port.

2. Leeward boat has rights over Windward.

3. Clear ahead, clear astern, and overlaps can only occur between boats on same tack.

From there, it gets expanded with Limitations On Right Of Way, and then of course Marks and Obstructions.

I think most people should first nail down the three easy ones I listed, and then start folding in the Limitations. Once that is all clear in the mind, then advance to Marks, etc.

Attending rules clinics (usually a fun way to spend a winter day) helps immensely. But retention is the big problem, so sailors need to periodically break the book out and review. These online links I think are fantastic. I know if I had an iPad, I would have that link saved as a favorite and would use it at the club if I had to prepare for a protest or if I were on the Protest Committee.
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  #13  
Old 02-29-2012
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One more aspect of 18.3 that allows the port tacker to survive in the zone, is the following:

Assume both port (Peter) and starboard (Paul) boats entered the zone at about the same time -- or at least to where when the Port boat Peter tacks, he'll be overlapped but on the inside. IF the starboard boat Paul has overstood the mark to the extent that if he were on a close-hauled course there is going to be room for the port tacker (now inside on starboard) to get around, then the outside boat Paul is held by Rule 11. In that scenario, even if Paul has begun bearing away to aim for the mark, he must still allow
Peter room at the mark -- UNLESS in doing so, he is now forced to sail above close hauled.

Clearly, the port tacker Peter had better have a damn good perspective on the angle that Paul is sailing, before he tries this manuever. That can only come through years of experience. For one thing, the Starboard boat may end up protesting anyway (even though he'd be wrong), and you'll end up spending your social hour in the room.
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  #14  
Old 02-29-2012
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Don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smart Pig View Post
Paul -- getting back to the issue -- logic would seem to be on your side, but after thoroughly studying this, I have concluded that nothing in the situation dictates that Starboard Paul must also be in the zone, or even close to the zone for Peter to be burdened. Let's make this a very light air race, and the original positions are as I stated -- Peter is in the zone and has tacked onto Starboard and slowly approached the mark and stalled, completely blocking the mark. Paul is still 6 lengths away from the mark - and barely able to make it on a close haul course. A full minute goes by until Paul gets close to Peter. He has no option but to luff up to try to get around Peter or to tack. He probably will do as you describe -- simply find a way to get around him. But I believe technically -- Peter has fouled, and if Paul is thinking clearly, he could or should protest depending on your adherence to the rules.

I myself, in the same situation, with a light air race descended upon us and having to look forward to a stinkin downwind run gasping for air, would probably just get pissed at the conditions and not even think about protesting, unless of course other boats behind me forced me into a big loss, whereupon I might reconsider the protest.
It still looks to me that the rule pertains to a boat that might be considered to be tacking too close. Rule 18.3 says that "if two boats are approaching a mark on opposite tacks, and one of them changes tack and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the Zone when the other is fetching the mark," rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply."(my emphasis).

As I see it, the clause about being subject to rule 13 (tacking too close) is the determining factor. The boat that changes tack inside the zone when subject to rule 13 (possibly tacking too close) is not allowed to make the other boat (that it might have been tacking too close to) sail above close hauled, is not allowed to prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and shall give mark room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her. If the boat that tacks is NOT subject to rule 13 -- if she has NOT tacked to close, then rule 18.3 does not apply. The starboard tack boat - Paul in this case- does not necessarily have to be in the zone along with Peter, but to employ this rule, Paul does have to be close enough to Peter that Peter could be considered to have tacked too close. If Peter stalls out or gets hung up on the mark's anchor line with Paul a half mile away, and Paul comes up to the mark with Peter still there - Paul can't expect to use this rule to help him get around the mark.
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Old 02-29-2012
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I understand your take on this ..... I could argue either position. At this time, I am not totally sold on my scenario. I'll tell you this much .. I have tons of rules quizzes around here, plus the access to the online animated rules situations. Since I have nothing better to do while waiting for Spring, I am going to make an effort to get this answered.
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Old 03-01-2012
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Before I weigh in with my two cents let me declare the caveat that I predominantly race centerboarders in England—feel free to take my views with a pinch of salt.

For me, there are two points. Rule 13 states:
Quote:
after a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats until she is on a close-hauled course...[my emphasis]
I think the key word there is until. Once a boat passes head to wind, it must keep clear for all the time up to and until she arrives back at close hauled. This is important particularly in starts (in small boats at least) where you might want to lurk on port, spot a gap, tack over, then sit slightly above close hauled on starboard to stop people getting past to windward.

I've learnt the hard way that you don't get your rights back until you hit close hauled...!

The second point is in Rule 18.3:
Quote:
If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply...[My emphasis]
Again, I've always understood that to mean that if you tack in the zone (i.e. go beyond head to wind & make yourself subject to Rule 13) the word thereafter means you can't ever gain rights under Rule 18.2 while rounding that mark.

In the original scenario, I would concur with the opinion that Peter has fouled Paul regardless of how far away Paul is when Peter stalls. It certainly isn't clear or concrete though—I know the RYA publishes a book explaining how the rules should be applied in various situations—and I could well be wrong.

I have to admit though, I would never tend to use 18.3 to get inside a starboard tack boat within the zone. If possible, I would tend to cross in front, overstand to a safe windward position and tack there. This can be a perfectly acceptable position if you think you're going to have to sail high for a bit before sticking the kite up, or if you want to gybe-set on a windward-leeward course and have enough space to blanket the guy in front. At worst, you're in clear air and unlikely to be hauled before a protest committee to explain yourself when you'd rather be at the bar!
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Old 03-01-2012
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What makes this situation (as I set it up) difficult to get a consensus on is the fact that the Definition for "Fetching" is open to a wide interpretation -- IMO.

Fetching -- A boat is fetching a mark when she is in a position to pass to windward of it and leave it on the required side without changing tack.

So -- when is a boat "in a position to pass to windward" of the mark? I could make an argument, that IF I have timed it perfectly, I am in a position to pass to windward of the weather mark when tacking on the layline, well outside of the zone. I.e., I sometimes "fetch" from a long way out, praying that I don't get knocked before I get there.

Had the Definition used different words -- something like "when she is about to round and is in a position to pass to windward ......." well then that would have been a lot more controlling of just where the starboard boat can be for rule 18.3 to engage. "About to round" may not be a Definition, but it is often used in conjunction with "zone" to deferentiate between boats close to a mark vs. boats sailing out in the open between marks.
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Old 03-01-2012
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There seems to be no discussion of rule 18.3 in any current USSailing appeals. ISAF Q&A has some clarifications about 18.3, but all involve boats that were overlapped, or both inside the zone when P tacks to S, or a situation where the S boat goes around the mark inside of P. The ISAF Case Book has nothing referring to a situation like the one described at the outset here either. There is some mention of rule 13 in the applicability of rule 18, but not much. Dave Perry - US Sailing's Appeals Chair - lives around the corner. I'll ask him what he thinks if he's not off in Brazil or Australia this week.
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Old 03-02-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulk View Post
There seems to be no discussion of rule 18.3 in any current USSailing appeals. ISAF Q&A has some clarifications about 18.3, but all involve boats that were overlapped, or both inside the zone when P tacks to S, or a situation where the S boat goes around the mark inside of P. The ISAF Case Book has nothing referring to a situation like the one described at the outset here either. There is some mention of rule 13 in the applicability of rule 18, but not much. Dave Perry - US Sailing's Appeals Chair - lives around the corner. I'll ask him what he thinks if he's not off in Brazil or Australia this week.
You are correct -- I spent a good of time yesterday going through the US Sailing Appeals and ISAF cases, and didn't find anything pertinent. As for Dave Perry, I posed this question to him in an email sent to US Sailling. I hope they forward it, as I can find no other way to contact him.

It all may really come down to the accepted interpretation of "Fetching". So ask Dave if fetching has limits on distance away from the weather mark?
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  #20  
Old 03-03-2012
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SP,

I have to admit, as I understood it the term fetching meant any boat that was on or above the layline on starboard tack (assuming its 'round the cans' racing.) The wording of the rules doesn't appear to allow any consideration of distance out from the mark. On its wording, that seems to say it would cover someone who did the whole beat in two tacks and so were able to lay the mark halfway (or, if there's tide, windbend etc, less) up the beat.

It does seem a bit crazy—but I'm not always sure the point of the RRS is to make sense.


You're also quite right that 18.3 doesn't make it clear if a boat becomes a boat subject to 18.3 after she passes head to wind (i.e. with the wind at 1°) or when she reaches a close hauled course (at 40°-ish). It seems absurd to suggest that a boat who tacks in the zone enjoys more rights between head-to-wind and close hauled than a boat who tacks out on the course. And there isn't any indication in Rule 18 that Rule 13 doesn't apply.

Yet the definitions don't define tacking as an action. If you take the definition for 'tack'
Quote:
A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side
and consider the definition of 'windward'
Quote:
A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind...The other side is her windward side
it does seem to admit the possibility that a boat has changed tack once she has gone from wind at 359° to 1°. In fact, I would say that it's clear that the change of 2° is sufficient for a change of tack.

I'd imagine this must have come up before though...I'll have to have a dig through the ISAF cases. I've always acted as if you can't become a Rule 18.3 boat until you have reached close hauled (and therefore that the port tacker would be a Rule 13 boat if above close hauled)—which seems instinctively more likely—but I don't know that for certain.
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