RR -- port tacker at the weather mark - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Racing
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 02-19-2012
Smart Pig's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Deltaville, VA
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Smart Pig is on a distinguished road
Question RR -- port tacker at the weather mark

This rule has undergone so many changes over my lifetime - and some of those changes just recently -- that I often get confused on the restrictions applied to the port tacker when he tacks onto starboard INSIDE the 3-boat length circle. While things get quite confusing when boats are real close .... such as losing rights while tacking, etc., etc., I am purposely going to pose a scenario that should be easy to understand and you all can confirm if I am right or all wet:

In light air, a port tacker (Peter) enters the circle. The closet starboard boat (Paul) on the starboard layline is 3 hull lengths away from the circle. Clearly this appears to be a non issue at this time.

Peter tacks onto Starboard and approaches the mark.
Because of fluky winds, he stalls right at the mark (not touching it).

Paul still has fairly good speed, enters the circle, and then has to luff up to get around Peter so as to round. He hollers "protest".

If I correctly understand the rules today -- I believe that Peter (originally port tack boat) has fouled Paul (starboard boat) because he made his tack onto starboard INSIDE of the circle. And this is why a port tack approach into the circle is extremely dangerous with the new rules.

Comments?

Last edited by Smart Pig; 02-19-2012 at 03:46 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 02-20-2012
paulk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 2,555
Thanks: 4
Thanked 23 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 15
paulk is on a distinguished road
The wording of rule 18.3 makes interpreting it a bit trickier than it might seem at first. Maybe I am reading more into it than is there. We'll see! Rule 18.3 appears to call for a boat that tacks within the 3 boatlength circle and which is subject to rule 13 (tacking too close) to not cause the other boat to sail above close hauled in order to get around the mark if the other boat is fetching the mark. Your description makes it seem that Peter has tacked, but not tacked too close, since Paul is 3 boatlengths away from the circle (i.e.: 6 boatlengths from the mark) in the light air. Peter's stallout might be vexing for Paul, but unless he's also in the zone, or close enough for Peter to be tacking too close, it looks like Paul simply becomes an overtaking boat that has to keep clear of a stalled out competitor as he rounds the mark. If Paul was in the zone (close enough that Peter might have been tacking too close) when Peter tacked, then rule 18.3 would definitely apply, and Peter would be doing circles or getting tossed. I think the two things both have to happen for rule 18.3 to apply: tacking inside the 3 boatlength circle while possibly tacking too close. Paul seems to have been too far away for that this time. Of course if Peter had done a better job gauging the mark, he'd have rounded and been gone by the time Paul got there. Someone else may see it differently - let's find out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 02-20-2012
Smart Pig's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Deltaville, VA
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Smart Pig is on a distinguished road
Thanks for your excellent analysis Paul. You are right - it is tricky. I purposely set the stage for Paul not being "too close" to test the real aspects of the rule. In trying to learn the changes, I've been told that a port tacker has tremendous onus on him if he enters the zone and then tacks onto Starboard. I cannot find any explanation that describes the positioning of the starboard boat outside of the zone. I do know that the port tacker Peter is ok as long as he doesn't force the starboard boat Paul to:

A. change his course before Peter completes his tack onto a close-hauled course, and
B. go higher than close-hauled (i.e. luff up toward head to wind) if he is going to collide. If Paul decides to duck and bear off, then Peter must give him room at the mark.

For some reason, I still believe all of this applies even if Paul was outside the zone when Peter tacked. But -- I am ready to be proven wrong. I would love to learn that none of this applies IF Paul is outside the zone when Peter completes his tack.

Btw, I have stumbled onto an excellent RR link with animated situations.

Regelspiel Uli Finckh

this is pretty neat stuff. Play around with it and learn how to navigate it and use the arrow buttons to slow things down or stop, repeat, etc.

Click right on the committee boat and it'll bring up a new window with different parts of the race course. Click on any one of those and you'll see a further breakdown of various situations. Once you've gone through some of them -- come back to the front page and click on whatever level quiz you want take.

This also has a lot of links to all the rules and IYRU cases, etc., etc. This would be a fantastic aid to have for a Protest Committee on someone's iPAD.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed by this pig do not necessarily reflect those of any human being. OINK --
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 02-20-2012
Smart Pig's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Deltaville, VA
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Smart Pig is on a distinguished road
Paul -- I see you sail the Sound (Conn). That is where I grew up and began racing with my dad at age 5. He was a charter member of the Old Greenwich YC -- this was back in the days when there really wasn't any commanding one-design. You had a smattering of a whole bunch of ODs, 2 or 3 Lightnings, same for Jolly boats, I-110s, Ravens, 2 Hamptons, Rhodes 19s, etc. I was found either in my dad's Hampton or his friends L-16.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed by this pig do not necessarily reflect those of any human being. OINK --
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 02-23-2012
paulk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 2,555
Thanks: 4
Thanked 23 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 15
paulk is on a distinguished road
Sailed by OGYC over Columbus Day wkend, headed to Indian Harbor. (Old Gwch is a bit shallow for us.) Looked like there were still some Rhodes & Ensigns in there. We've shifted through Atlantics, Lightnings, Solings, Thistles, and now, Ideal 18's for One Designs at our club. We may have a half dozen J/109's soon. Lots of opportunities to explore the rules.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 02-24-2012
Smart Pig's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Deltaville, VA
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Smart Pig is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulk View Post

Your description makes it seem that Peter has tacked, but not tacked too close, since Paul is 3 boatlengths away from the circle (i.e.: 6 boatlengths from the mark) in the light air. Peter's stallout might be vexing for Paul, but unless he's also in the zone, or close enough for Peter to be tacking too close, it looks like Paul simply becomes an overtaking boat that has to keep clear of a stalled out competitor as he rounds the mark. If Paul was in the zone (close enough that Peter might have been tacking too close) when Peter tacked, then rule 18.3 would definitely apply, and Peter would be doing circles or getting tossed. I think the two things both have to happen for rule 18.3 to apply: tacking inside the 3 boatlength circle while possibly tacking too close. Paul seems to have been too far away for that this time.
Paul -- getting back to the issue -- logic would seem to be on your side, but after thoroughly studying this, I have concluded that nothing in the situation dictates that Starboard Paul must also be in the zone, or even close to the zone for Peter to be burdened. Let's make this a very light air race, and the original positions are as I stated -- Peter is in the zone and has tacked onto Starboard and slowly approached the mark and stalled, completely blocking the mark. Paul is still 6 lengths away from the mark - and barely able to make it on a close haul course. A full minute goes by until Paul gets close to Peter. He has no option but to luff up to try to get around Peter or to tack. He probably will do as you describe -- simply find a way to get around him. But I believe technically -- Peter has fouled, and if Paul is thinking clearly, he could or should protest depending on your adherence to the rules.

I myself, in the same situation, with a light air race descended upon us and having to look forward to a stinkin downwind run gasping for air, would probably just get pissed at the conditions and not even think about protesting, unless of course other boats behind me forced me into a big loss, whereupon I might reconsider the protest.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed by this pig do not necessarily reflect those of any human being. OINK --

Last edited by Smart Pig; 02-24-2012 at 02:01 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 02-24-2012
CalebD's Avatar
Tartan 27' owner
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,617
Thanks: 4
Thanked 93 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 7
CalebD will become famous soon enough
Smart Pig,
I like the rules quiz link you posted. Thanks for that. UK Halsey and some of the other sailmakers may have more extensive quiz examples on their websites: Sailing Rules - Rules Quiz - Racing Rules Of Sailing

A question related to your hypothetical mark rounding situation (post #6). If Peter has made his tack to stbd. legally and then stalled completely, blocking the mark from Paul's perspective - is Peter's boat an 'obstruction' to Paul if it is in irons or completely lacking forward progress?

Nice discussion. Makes me want to get back out on the racecourse.
__________________
"The cure for anything is salt water~ sweat, tears, or the sea." ~Isak Denesen

Everybody has one:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 02-24-2012
Smart Pig's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Deltaville, VA
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Smart Pig is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
Smart Pig,
I like the rules quiz link you posted. Thanks for that. UK Halsey and some of the other sailmakers may have more extensive quiz examples on their websites: Sailing Rules - Rules Quiz - Racing Rules Of Sailing

A question related to your hypothetical mark rounding situation (post #6). If Peter has made his tack to stbd. legally and then stalled completely, blocking the mark from Paul's perspective - is Peter's boat an 'obstruction' to Paul if it is in irons or completely lacking forward progress?
Ok -- good question since some would want to argue that Peter, caught in irons, has now become an obstruction. However, per the definition which employs R21, he is not an obstruction. He has to be capsized, anchored, or aground for him to be an obstruction.

Btw, I agree -- time to get back out on the course -- but not with those conditions!
__________________
The views and opinions expressed by this pig do not necessarily reflect those of any human being. OINK --

Last edited by Smart Pig; 02-24-2012 at 04:06 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 02-24-2012
Smart Pig's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Deltaville, VA
Posts: 42
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Smart Pig is on a distinguished road
Playing around with the UK Halsey link. Thanks too for providing. I think you can get an awful lot out of it without having to dish out the $55 bucks.
__________________
The views and opinions expressed by this pig do not necessarily reflect those of any human being. OINK --
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 02-24-2012
SimonV's Avatar
Wish I never found SN!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 1,997
Thanks: 3
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 9
SimonV will become famous soon enough
glad I dont race, tried the quiz failed and it called me rail meat.
__________________
Simon
Ericson 39B.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I love my boat
S/V GOODONYA
Brisbane
present location Heading to the Whitesundays

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

DELIVERY SKIPPER
Drinking Rum before 10am makes you a Pirate NOT an alcohlic
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ATN Tacker mandolinwind Gear & Maintenance 5 11-24-2006 09:34 AM
Weather causes a change in wardrobe - Port Huron Times Herald NewsReader News Feeds 0 07-14-2006 10:15 AM
Stormy weather slows arrival of race's 'stars' - Port Huron Times Herald NewsReader News Feeds 0 07-13-2006 10:15 AM
ATN Tacker MPollock General Discussion (sailing related) 2 03-10-2006 07:01 PM
Tacker for my Gennacker megsmom General Discussion (sailing related) 1 02-07-2005 04:39 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:28 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.