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  #11  
Old 06-04-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

I just saw that this is a Ranger 22. These were boats which were at their best upwind and should do its best on the upwind legs but boats like J-29's, a pair of Ultimate 20's, a J-80, a Laser 28, and occasionally a J-24 should be wildly faster than the IOR based Ranger 22 on all points of sail. The Laser and J-24 probably do not try to point as high as you guys but should really out foot you like you are standing still and still make less leeway . Nothing you can do about that.

Sorry. But everything else that I suggested is about sailing closer to your rating. Once you have the old girl pointing properly and moving as well as she can, tactically, you need to focus on a clear air start and a way to peel off and find your own clear air lane. If you keep your air clear and find your lane, you should at least correct out better.

As much as I hate to say this again, it is extremely hard to be competitive racing old IOR boats under PHRF and being the slowest rating in your class. If racing is important, try to find an old MORC boat of the mid-70's eto mid 1980's era as they are better rounded designs.
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  #12  
Old 06-04-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

Jeff, you should really stop with the anti-IOR rap. There are a couple of old 3/4, 1, and two tonnes in the PNW that are sailed well and actively. I can also think of a particular and well known Farr 1 tonner and a Wiley Hawkfarm that still do well in SF when they're out. They aren't for everyone, but the idea that they can't be competitive in PHRF is your prejudice and certainly not fact. Respectfully said I might add. Your advice in most other things is spot on.

Last edited by puddinlegs; 06-06-2012 at 11:56 AM.
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  #13  
Old 06-04-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

Jeff, isn’t a Ranger 22 more of a family pocket cruiser? How do you get IOR out of that? I think their closest competition will be the Santana 22 that is scheduled to start racing. I wonder what everyone’s rating is out there?
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  #14  
Old 06-04-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

You are definitely in tough with that fleet! The Ultimate 20 is the same hull as my Hotfoot 20 with more sail area and more ballast. It is a truly high performance sport boat, and a Ranger 22 is not going to touch it in most conditions. The only boat that you will stand a chance against might be the J24 which is an odd beast with it's own issues! It is probably closest in rating too.

You have definitely done more than the average club racer with regards to the keel. As Jeff_H points out, it is time to look at everything else. Come to grips with being tail-end charlie, because that is inevitable, you just need to focus on keeping your boat moving, and try to hold your handicap on the fleet. The one advantage that the back markers in the fleet have is that they can see what kind of wind the boats ahead have, which is good tactical info, especially in light wind!

Next time you race, take lots of photos of your sail trim. Take the pics looking up the sails from a low angle, under the boom for the main, and from the foredeck for the genoa. Do your best to get the whole sail in the pic. Post the pics here and we will see what we can figure out!

Jeff_H, you make some valid points about things they should be checking, but do you really think "you should just buy a different boat" is helpful??
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Old 06-04-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

You may have already seen this tuning guide written by Charles Ulmer (UK Sails), but here it is anyway!

Ranger 22 Tuning

Gary Mull knew what he was doing when he designed this boat; it was very quick in it's day. There are still active class associations around where you will no doubt find plenty of tips!
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Old 06-04-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

[quote=Jeff_H;880515]
Quote:
But as I read your post, I am skeptical that its a keel sectional problem, or a mast rake problem. You do not describe a lee or weather helm, so mast rake seems like a red herring, and even if you completely screwed up the foil shape, I doubt it is the problem.
Good to know.

Quote:
What you are describing is a classic case of bad sails, bad rig tension or bad sail trim. It is surprising how little it takes for a set of sails to be blown out enough to kill speed and pointing enough to be very noticable.
I would agree with this. Bill bought a new dacron main and a new 125 a couple of years ago. I've never been convinced that the guy who measured for the sails knew what he was doing. They are quantum sails, and you would think they would be able to make a set of sails off standard measurements, but they don't. Instead they rely on local "dealers" who sell a set of sails every 2-3 years to measure the boat. I think the main is pretty good, although we may not be able to get enough luff tension on it, but the 125 is junk. I won't even fly it. Instead I'm stuck trying to make his old sails work. His 155 is affectionately referred to as "the bedsheet". The very few times we have corrected out with a win was on very light air days flying the bedsheet.

Quote:
And frankly, it sounds like your boat is point extremely badly, not just slightly so. If the 'squares' on your windex are truly set at 90 degrees this boat should never get near a race course. Because the windex reads apparent wind on each tack, the typical angles between the center of the squares (i.e. wires) on a decent race boat is somewhere around 40-50 degrees.
Hence my second guessing the keel shape.

Quote:
I suggest that you walk us through the basics.
What kind of boat is this?
Ranger 22
Quote:
Does the Jib have top, middle and bottom forward telltales?
2 telltales. 1/3 and 2/3 height
Quote:
Has the lead been set so that each break at the same time?
Yes
Quote:
When the jib is full in, does the leech curl sharply inward or flutter?
slight flutter.
Quote:
When the jib is full in, what is the angle between the centerline of the boat and a line between the Clew and the Tack?
Good question. I'll find out Saturday.
Quote:
Are there leech telltales on the mainsail?
Yes
Quote:
When the mainsail is set properly, is the boom on the centerline, and sighting from below the boom, is the upper batten set parallel to the boom?
I think so, but I'll double check Saturday.
Quote:
Here's the trick question, do any of the battens **** to windward and do all the telltales fly?
I'm assuming you were trying to say c.u.r.l? No they don't. In my opinion, the battens need to be "tuned". I think they are too stiff, especially the top one. We do adjust tension on them, but they are so hard that they only get any curve when the wind is howling.
Quote:
Are the sails too full or too rounded? (within reason this is about outhaul tension, halyard tension, backstay tension and sheet tension- throw away the cunningham)
Like I said earlier, I'm not convinced that we're getting enough luff tension on the main, and I don't know that it's possible with this main. Maybe I'll have him drag out his old main and compare luff length.

Quote:
Okay, when everything is set properly, can the helmsman keep the jib telltales flying?
Yes

Quote:
If your answers are that the sails are in good shape and properly set and you still only show and apparent wind of 45 degrees, I would suggest that you delegate this boat to be the boat that you cruise and find a decent boat to race. ;-)
Now that you mention it, there is an Antrim 27 for sale.....

Quote:
As much as I hate to say this again, it is extremely hard to be competitive racing old IOR boats under PHRF and being the slowest rating in your class. If racing is important, try to find an old MORC boat of the mid-70's eto mid 1980's era as they are better rounded designs.
Honestly, how important can it be on a mud puddle in the midwest? A little frustrating to be sure, but in the end we're competing for a plastic trophy and the occasional bottle of rum. Bragging rights don't get you very far in this part of the world (You can race sailboats???). I would just like to occasionally correct out somewhere near the top.
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Last edited by US27inKS; 06-04-2012 at 11:28 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-04-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

[quote=SchockT;880612]
Quote:
You are definitely in tough with that fleet! The Ultimate 20 is the same hull as my Hotfoot 20 with more sail area and more ballast. It is a truly high performance sport boat, and a Ranger 22 is not going to touch it in most conditions. The only boat that you will stand a chance against might be the J24 which is an odd beast with it's own issues! It is probably closest in rating too.
I don't expect to outrun any of those boats unless they are having a very bad day. We did correct out faster than the Tartan 27 (which I forgot to mention earlier) last Saturday. They were having a worse day than us though.

Quote:
You have definitely done more than the average club racer with regards to the keel. As Jeff_H points out, it is time to look at everything else. Come to grips with being tail-end charlie, because that is inevitable, you just need to focus on keeping your boat moving, and try to hold your handicap on the fleet. The one advantage that the back markers in the fleet have is that they can see what kind of wind the boats ahead have, which is good tactical info, especially in light wind!
I'm definitely used to it. If there's a protest, we are usually asked what we saw due to our superior vantage point on the action.

Quote:
Next time you race, take lots of photos of your sail trim. Take the pics looking up the sails from a low angle, under the boom for the main, and from the foredeck for the genoa. Do your best to get the whole sail in the pic. Post the pics here and we will see what we can figure out!
I'll definitely do that. I'll fly the full range of head sails (weather permitting) even the 125 that I hate.

Quote:
Jeff_H, you make some valid points about things they should be checking, but do you really think "you should just buy a different boat" is helpful??
I actually understand his point of view. It can be frustrating trying to talk someone through making an old slow boat a little less slow when the real answer is that it's just a slow boat. It's easy for people on the coast to forget that sailboat racing is infinitely less important to the admirals in the midwest than near big water. Telling your wife that you're going to spend 30K on a new boat so you can get the next size bigger plastic trophy doesn't fly. So we make do with what we have.

And thanks for the link on the tuning manual. I'm sure Bill has it, but now that I have it I'll make sure it gets done.
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  #18  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

I am surprised that you are not happy with the new Quantum headsail. The salesman did the right thing in measuring the boat in person to confirm measurements. Any good sailmaker would do that . Quantum has a reputation for designing very fast sails, and they have very high build standards. Modern dacrons are pretty decent low stretch fabrics that will last a long time.

What don't you like about it?
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  #19  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

Quote:
His 155 is affectionately referred to as "the bedsheet". The very few times we have corrected out with a win was on very light air days flying the bedsheet.
I would think that light air would be your best chance of winning some pickle dishes! Those '70s narrow aft sections make for much less wet surface area, and that nicely faired keel will make you nice and slippery. Those wide flat sterns that make the newer boats so fast in a breeze, sure stick to the water in the light stuff! Sure, they can compensate with forward weight trim to get the stern out of the water, but alot of people don't! Certainly a 155 genoa trumps their non overlapping jibs, and a symetric spinnaker can be a better wind seeker than the A-kite. (in the right hands that is!)

When nobody can reach their hull speed it's anyone's race!
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  #20  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

Quote:
Originally Posted by US27inKS View Post
Good to know.

I would agree with this. Bill bought a new dacron main and a new 125 a couple of years ago. I've never been convinced that the guy who measured for the sails knew what he was doing. They are quantum sails, and you would think they would be able to make a set of sails off standard measurements, but they don't. Instead they rely on local "dealers" who sell a set of sails every 2-3 years to measure the boat. I think the main is pretty good, although we may not be able to get enough luff tension on it, but the 125 is junk. I won't even fly it. Instead I'm stuck trying to make his old sails work. His 155 is affectionately referred to as "the bedsheet". The very few times we have corrected out with a win was on very light air days flying the bedsheet.

Hence my second guessing the keel shape.


Ranger 22

2 telltales. 1/3 and 2/3 height
Yes
slight flutter.
Good question. I'll find out Saturday.
Yes
I think so, but I'll double check Saturday.
I'm assuming you were trying to say c.u.r.l? No they don't. In my opinion, the battens need to be "tuned". I think they are too stiff, especially the top one. We do adjust tension on them, but they are so hard that they only get any curve when the wind is howling.
Like I said earlier, I'm not convinced that we're getting enough luff tension on the main, and I don't know that it's possible with this main. Maybe I'll have him drag out his old main and compare luff length.

Yes

Now that you mention it, there is an Antrim 27 for sale.....

Honestly, how important can it be on a mud puddle in the midwest? A little frustrating to be sure, but in the end we're competing for a plastic trophy and the occasional bottle of rum. Bragging rights don't get you very far in this part of the world (You can race sailboats???). I would just like to occasionally correct out somewhere near the top.
Two thoughts in reading this post. For the luff tension on the main, you should have a cunningham rigged and that is where you should get the luff tension from. Get a full hoist on the main, and then use the cunningham to tension the luff and pull the draft forward as far as you need. On the 125, have you tried racing with it? Can you get the sailmaker to come out with you for an afternoon? If you are sailing shorthanded, and with a blownout 155 when you would be better served with a 125, that would explain the leeway you are experiencing. Sometimes what looks fast to your eye, and what is fast are two different things. To go fast and point in a J24, you have a droopy headstay and scallops in the genoa. This does not look fast to many people, especially the ones at the back of the pack with a tight forestay and smooth luff. The sailmaker should have an idea of what you need to do to make that sail work for you, get him on the boat and have him explain it to you.

I would also again stress that a fully crewed boat with everyone performing their role, and people on the rail when they need to be is super critical. You should try to sail the boat as flat as possible going upwind. That is a stubby little keel you have, and it will stop working quickly when heeled over. There is also no way for one person to effectively keep all the sails trimmed correctly all the time. The backstay, vang, main sheet, traveller, jib sheets, and spin sheets/guys, need to be constantly tweaked. You as one person have two hands, and one set of eyes, and will come up short trying to do everything yourself. Racing a boat like this requires a team, not a driver and a superhero.

I don't think it is the keel which is your problem right now, everything you need to work on is above deck, meaning your rig setup, sail trim, and crew work.

Last edited by anthemj24; 06-05-2012 at 05:07 AM.
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