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  #21  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
I am surprised that you are not happy with the new Quantum headsail. The salesman did the right thing in measuring the boat in person to confirm measurements. Any good sailmaker would do that . Quantum has a reputation for designing very fast sails, and they have very high build standards. Modern dacrons are pretty decent low stretch fabrics that will last a long time.

What don't you like about it?
The problems that I have with the Quantum 125 is that it sweeps the deck to the point of getting hooked on the bow cleat on every tack. I have to go forward, unhook it, then come back to trim. I can also never seem to get a good shape out of it. The luff is constantly flapping. I think it was just measured wrong.

I agree that from a sail manufacturers standpoint measuring the boat is the right thing to do. This assumes some level of competence on the part of the guy doing the measuring. The quantum "salesman" is a great guy, but I'll be willing to bet he's only measured half a dozen boats, and maybe not that many, and at the rate of a couple a year. Considering these facts, and the fact that the new 125 can be outperformed by his old 125, I have to believe that we have a problem with the way the boat was measured. This also gives me less confidence in the main as it was measured by the same guy.
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  #22  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

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Originally Posted by anthemj24 View Post
Two thoughts in reading this post. For the luff tension on the main, you should have a cunningham rigged and that is where you should get the luff tension from. Get a full hoist on the main, and then use the cunningham to tension the luff and pull the draft forward as far as you need. On the 125, have you tried racing with it? Can you get the sailmaker to come out with you for an afternoon? If you are sailing shorthanded, and with a blownout 155 when you would be better served with a 125, that would explain the leeway you are experiencing. Sometimes what looks fast to your eye, and what is fast are two different things. To go fast and point in a J24, you have a droopy headstay and scallops in the genoa. This does not look fast to many people, especially the ones at the back of the pack with a tight forestay and smooth luff. The sailmaker should have an idea of what you need to do to make that sail work for you, get him on the boat and have him explain it to you.

I would also again stress that a fully crewed boat with everyone performing their role, and people on the rail when they need to be is super critical. You should try to sail the boat as flat as possible going upwind. That is a stubby little keel you have, and it will stop working quickly when heeled over. There is also no way for one person to effectively keep all the sails trimmed correctly all the time. The backstay, vang, main sheet, traveller, jib sheets, and spin sheets/guys, need to be constantly tweaked. You as one person have two hands, and one set of eyes, and will come up short trying to do everything yourself. Racing a boat like this requires a team, not a driver and a superhero.

I don't think it is the keel which is your problem right now, everything you need to work on is above deck, meaning your rig setup, sail trim, and crew work.
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Racing a boat like this requires a team, not a driver and a superhero.
I would definitely agree with this. Problem is that there are a very limited number of good crew available in the area. It's not easy to recruit good crew for the slowest boat in the fleet when there are positions open on J-29's. I wouldn't call myself a superhero, just willing to do whatever I have to do, albeit badly at times.
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  #23  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

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Originally Posted by US27inKS View Post
The problems that I have with the Quantum 125 is that it sweeps the deck to the point of getting hooked on the bow cleat on every tack. I have to go forward, unhook it, then come back to trim. I can also never seem to get a good shape out of it. The luff is constantly flapping. I think it was just measured wrong.

I agree that from a sail manufacturers standpoint measuring the boat is the right thing to do. This assumes some level of competence on the part of the guy doing the measuring. The quantum "salesman" is a great guy, but I'll be willing to bet he's only measured half a dozen boats, and maybe not that many, and at the rate of a couple a year. Considering these facts, and the fact that the new 125 can be outperformed by his old 125, I have to believe that we have a problem with the way the boat was measured. This also gives me less confidence in the main as it was measured by the same guy.
A little tape over that cleat should help with the sail catching on it.
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

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Originally Posted by US27inKS View Post
I would definitely agree with this. Problem is that there are a very limited number of good crew available in the area. It's not easy to recruit good crew for the slowest boat in the fleet when there are positions open on J-29's. I wouldn't call myself a superhero, just willing to do whatever I have to do, albeit badly at times.
I can understand that. We are not exactly in a sailing mecca now either, so when we race nowadays it is usually just my wife and I. What we have done though is to try and divide the responsibilities as much as poissible between the two of us. So helmsman has main, traveller, backstay. Trimmer has genoa, spin sheet, cunningham, vang, and twings. At roundings, helm takes the genny or spin sheets, and trimmer manages the hoist/douse. We also learned to shorten sdail much earlier than we would with a full crew to help keep the boat flat. Going a couple tenths of a not faster was not helpful if a good deal of it was sideways.
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Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

I didn't read all of the replies, so sorry if this has been covered before.

The biggest thing you can do, is get the sailmaker out on the boat with the sails they built. This will show immediate impacts on how to set the rig and trim the sails.

Step one - are you fast? What are your target upwind numbers and are you hitting them? Here are some polars for a Ranger 23 http://www.arvelgentry.com/r23/r23_polars.pdf
If you have speed, that's great, speed first, then work on pointing. ALWAYS, if you're slow, you won't point. Period.

Step two - This is the boat in question right? RANGER 22 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com fractional rig with swept spreaders? If that's the case, buy a rig tuner.

Step three - tune the rig (that's another thread topic).

Step four - play with sail trim. Sheet on the main. Try a little traveler up, maybe even the boom just above C/L. Some boats like this in the light stuff. Play with headsail trim. Ease the halyard a touch, this creates a finer entry and will give you more point. Lengthen the headstay, you want a little weather helm. Just a little. Trim the sheet hard, move the leads so the foot touches the chainplate when it's about to touch the spreader at final trim.

That last one is very important on my boat. If the foot of my quantum 155 isn't touching the chainplate upwind, we don't point. Period. We can't hold a lane, and then are eating **** for the rest of the upwind leg, or have to tack away on the unfavored board, heading to the unfavoured side, looking for clean air. <- yeah, that's slow, but it beats the alternative of sailing in dirty air.

Is there any difference in pointing ability in heavy vs light conditions?
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  #26  
Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

There is some great advice coming your way in this thread!

Regarding the Q jib, the fact that it is a "deck sweeper" is a good thing for racing. It is not the fault of the jib that it gets caught on a bow cleat! That is the cleat's fault! What some people do to deal with cleats like that is notch out small wood blocks to fit under each horn, and then connect the two blocks together with bungee cord to hold them in place. Problem solved. As for the fit of the sail, if Quantum got it wrong, they WILL make it right I am sure! They have a reputation to uphold. Your friend spent a lot of money on new sails, it is silly to give up on them. If you have enough power to use the 125, then throw the 155 "bedsheet" off the boat and take the rating credit for the smaller headsail. There is no point being rated for a sail you don't use.
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

I am not familure with the Ranger 22, but a 125% by itself may be your problem.

These short overlapping headsails have to be trimmed pretty far forward, and because of the stays that requires the jib lead to be moved outboard from ideal. This means on many boats you just can't get the boat to point well, because the best sheeting angle you can get is 10 degrees outboard from your 155.

Do yourself a favor, and measure the lead angle from the tack to the jib lead on the 155%, then on the 125%, and if you have a smaller inside overlapping sail, it too. What you will most likely see is a major spike in trim angle between them. If this is the case, try not carrying the 125. Just carry the 155% further, and switching to the #3 a little early. It could make all the difference in the world.
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Old 06-05-2012
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

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Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
Jeff, you should really stop with the anti-IOR rap. There are a couple of old 3/4, 1, and two tonnes in the PNW that are sailed well and actively. I can also think of a particular and well known Farr 1 tonner and a Wiley Hawkfarm that still do well in SF when they're out. They aren't for everyone, but the idea that they can't be competitive in PHRF is your prejudice and certainly not fact. Respectfully said I might add. Your advise in most other things is spot on.
Pudding:

I understand that there are that people disagree with my comments on old IOR designs, considering them to be a personal prejudice of mine. I agree that this may be my opinion, but that opinion comes from decades of owning and racing these boats and continuing to race them side by side MORC and non rule designed boats of the same period let alone with more modern designs. Perhaps it might help if I explain where I am coming from, and by explaining my position the hope is that certainly anyone who disagrees is free to weigh in on the parts of this that they think I have wrong.

But to begin with, I did not say that you can't successfully race an old IOR boat. What I said is "it is extremely hard to be competitive racing old IOR boats under PHRF" and I firmly believe that based on my own personal experience.

But before I explain that statement I do want to address GeorgeB's comments. The Ranger 22 began life as an IOR mini-tonner and was fractionally rigged. These were a prototypical mini-tonners designed to compete with similar Ericson, Creekmore, Holland, Tanton, and Schock mini-tonners of that same era. I think that George may be mistaking the Ranger 22 for the Ranger 23, which was a masthead rig MORC design of the same era. The Ranger 23 is one of my favorite boats of that size and era and a great little PHRF boat from that time frame. The Ranger 23 is a well rounded design that sailed well in a wide cross section of conditions and points of sail. The 23 is a boat that is near and dear to my heart. The Ranger 22 not so much...

But back to my take on racing IOR boats. It is not that these boats are impossible to race, but as a broad generality, they are less forgiving and so require a much higher llevel of skill to sail.

It is most apparent when you sail an IOR boat back to back with a MORC derived design from the same era. Jumping from something like a Schock's Santana 25 (IOR) to Schock's Wavelength 24 (MORC) or Santana 23 (same builder and designer as the 25 but a MORC boat), or from a Contessa 33 or J-34 (IOR) to something like a J-35 (no rule) for example, or from a San Juan 27 (IOR) to an S2 6.9 (MORC), the first thing that you notice is that the IOR boats are much quicker to lose speed and are noticably slower to get it back. As a result they penalize small mistakes more than a less finicky design.

You see this dramatically when you race these boats in a mixed fleet. Hit a wake when you are racing on an IOR boat, (something like the Ranger 22 in question) and you quickly see that the J-22 next to you will slow almost as much as you do, but the J22 will be back to speed much quicker, suddenly picking up several boat lengths. Hit a 5 knot windspeed increase, and the J-22 might need a click in on the jib and mainsheet sheet and more tension on the backstay, where as the mini-tonner would need a jib sheet lead change (and ideally a sail change), as well as everything else the J-22 would need.

In light air, the IOR boats of the Ranger 22 era, were designed to be raced with 170% genoas. My old quarter tonner had a light air 170% and two different weight 150's and there was a huge difference in performance between these sails so you had to pick the right sail; consequently sail changes were the norm, not the exception. Try improving the Ranger 22's light air performance by using a 170% genoa in a fleet that will allow it and the PHRF penalty will kill any chance that the boat had to save her time.

But more to the point, the unforgiving nature of sailing IOR era boats (tender and counting on proportionately large headsails even on fractional riggers) meant that you needed the right sail for the wind condition. These boats counted on comparatively narrow wind range sails in order to have enough drive for the specific condition without being overpowered. The idea that a 22 footer needs a #1, #2 and #3 to be competitive seems crazy to me when compared to something like a J-22 which can sail to its rating with only one headsail. But more to the point it also puts a premium on having the right sail for the condition. I know modern high tech sails offset this a little, but should you really need high tech sails to go club racing.

Old MORC boats like a J-24, Wavelength 24, Capri 25 or S2 6.9's were strictly 4 sail rigs (#1, #3, Spin, and Main). These MORC derived designs had bigger SA/D's and the stability to carry these bigger sail plans across a wider wind range. It meant they could use the same sail plan into lighter winds and still carry them into higher windspeeds. It was simply a matter of getting the sail trim right.

Even if you hung-on upwind, on reaches and downwind in a breeze, IOR boats like the Ranger 22 (as compared to MORC derived boats or later designs) are really at a loss in terms of being able to get above hull speed. These older MORC designs will surf more readily and will shift into semi-planning mode much more readily than the IOR boat. I remember the first time that I sailed a J-24, Capri 25 or a J-29, I was stunned at how forgiving these boats were as compared to my old quarter tonner. When I traded my quarter tonner for a Kirby 25, I could get by with a smaller crew and sail inventory and focus on steering and not have to focus on recovering disappearing boat speed.

And the factors that result in a boat being forgiving do not show up in a PHRF rating. Neither does a PHRF factor in the tactical advantage of being able to sail a little faster than a similar length boat and therefore sail slightly further in order place the boat in a more advantageous position on the course.

So while a skilled crew, with a well prepped IOR boat, can be competitive, especially in a venue where the prevalent conditions are moderate and steady, it is a much tougher battle. The skill level to get to speed and stay at speed on an IOR design needs to be much higher, and there is less room for error.

I also want to comment on my advice to change boats if racing is important to the boat owner. US27's description of the crew suggests that this is a pretty casual and novice bunch. If just getting out on the race course is okay for them, then the Ranger 22 should be okay. There is nothing wrong with not being competitive as long as you don't care. But if being competitive is important, there are a whole range of boats in a similar size and price range that might work better, including boats like the Ranger 23 mentioned above, to a Capri 25, Wavelength 24, J-24, J-22, perhaps a Kirby 25 or something like Santana 23 if trailering is important.

I know this is only my perception, although you used to see this kind of discussion in print back in the day, but hopefully this bit of an explanation will bridge some of the gap.

Respectfully,

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 06-05-2012 at 04:19 PM.
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

Thanks guys. There truly is a lot of good advice being given here. And Jeff's explanation of why he doesn't like IOR boats actually explains a lot about some of the performance issues we've experienced on this boat. For example, if a power boat crosses in front of us, we can expect the boat to stop dead in it's tracks when we hit the wake.

I'll take lots of pictures this weekend, and keep track of tacking angles and speed with the various sails.
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Re: Keel shape and pointing

One thing I forgot to suggest is that John mentioned a problem with the #2 catching on the bow cleats. That is never a good thing.

It is not unusual for race boats to have a way of fairing all non-essential cleats and other hardware to the deck or mast under way. At the very least, you can experiement with rigging a piece duct tape parrallel to the long dimension of the cleat from the deck across the horns and back to the deck.

The more permanent solution is plastic or wooden 'shoes' which slide under the horn and are tapered to the deck and have one for each horn and is held in place by shock chord through each pair of shoes. These are quick and easy to make and you just snap them on when you leave the dock and take them off after the race.

Jeff
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