new 120% genoa - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Racing
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 09-09-2012
paulk's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: CT/ Long Island Sound
Posts: 2,533
Thanks: 4
Thanked 20 Times in 19 Posts
Rep Power: 15
paulk is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

Stumble seems to have it about right for the differences between laminate and woven sails. It might be useful to look at woven sails as if they were knitted wool sweaters. When you first put it on, it fits beautifully. Wear it a few times in a touch football game or two and it begins to change. The sleeve you rolled up to show off your tattoo is looser than the other one. The bottom droops a bit on the left side where Steve tried to stop you from crossing the goal line. The wool is still there, still the same color and softness, and just as warm as ever. But it will never fit the same way it originally did. Woven sails are similar. Ten or more years old, they may LOOK ok - very little wear & tear, and still as white as new - but their SHAPE will never be the same. Laminates are more like airplane wings. The way they are made keeps their shape from changing at all -- until something in their construction gives, and the whole thing suddenly self-destructs because the glue fails, or because luffing creates a weak spot that cracks. You pays your money and makes your choice.

For the different sized genoas, sono has good advice about trying to get the best rating. The question then becomes how accurate the different ratings for the different sized sails are. If you get a smaller than standard sail, and the rating changes by 5 seconds per mile to compensate you for that, do you actually sail five seconds per mile slower with the smaller sail? If you only sail three seconds per mile slower with the smaller sail, it gives you a two second per mile advantage to use that sail. If you sail six seconds per mile slower with the smaller sail, the five second change isn't enough, and going with that sized sail would put you at a disadvantage. Figuring this all out might take three or four seasons, and the PHRF committee could change things for you if you started winning too many races. The best thing to do might be to determine what size sail you'd like to use most of the time. If Toronto is a heavy-air venue, a smaller sail might simply be easier to handle, and wouldn't affect boatspeed that much. If Toronto tends to lighter air, you'll get more use - and enjoyment - from a bigger sail. Go with the jib you'll get the most from.

Also in light of woven sails, I spoke with a sailmaker this summer who told me about a problem he'd had with a polyester sail succumbing to UV degradation in a very short time. It appears Dupont no longer makes dacron. Nobody does. Different companies make variouis polyester fibers, and it gets woven into sailcloth, such as Pentex. The problem this sailmaker had was that somewhere along the way the new producers tweaked the formula, and the polyester fiber became less UV-resistant than the "old stuff:". The manufacturer replaced all the damaged material, but the sailmaker still had to build a new suit of sails for the boat. Something to be aware of: polyester is not immune to UV.
john f likes this.

Last edited by paulk; 09-09-2012 at 10:33 PM. Reason: updated info
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 09-10-2012
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: toronto
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
john f is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.Clearly the advantage gained in secs per mile for a smaller genoa is often dependant on chance and wind strength. we had our club regatta on saturday last with wind gusting to 25 knots. By dint of sticking it out when others went home (lost two full length battens from the old main I was using..... silly or what!) got a flag. Now i had the perf that went with a 120% genoa, and used a blade jib. (and the blade was too big a sail really.......but how often do you need a 70%sized no.1 jib?) If i had the perf of a boat with a full sized genoa prob would have not got the flag. so chance played a role, as it must do with any hadicapping system.

Your info on the difficulty with "dacron " sails is very interesting. Does Practical Sailor know about this? Any sailmakers out there prepared to comment?
Once again to members, thanks for the input. john f
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 09-10-2012
zz4gta's Avatar
I don't discuss my member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 2,418
Thanks: 0
Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts
Rep Power: 7
zz4gta is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweegs View Post
The carbon fiber sails were pushing 8 grand each and expected to only last up to 5 years. Strong and light weight, but degrade quickly…don’t leave them out in the sun.
"It is naturally black in color and is essentially unaffected by UV exposure."
Doyle Sailmakers: Fiber Guide

Carbon is great in the sun. No worries. What it doesn't like is bending. Carbon is brittle. It's all a trade off.
__________________
Merit 25 # 764 "Audrey"
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 09-10-2012
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,653
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Re: new 120% genoa

I have a 110 made of North Nor-lam, got maybe 4 season out of it, very few miles/races! In the mean time, my 155 is an ullman fiberpath, not sure how many miles. tacks, racs etc, still pulling very well at 3 yrs.

Personally, some of the laminates are less than 20% more compared to woven, the performance parts last longer etc. so why not spend the difference. Along with true laminate's will not stretch in equal or the upper range of a given sail, so you do not heel or loose speed as much.

My def of true laminates would be my fiberpath, 3dl, Ullmans CAL, some of the mylar with carbon or other scrim in the middle. The norlam while a laminate, it is still mostly dacron.

As mentioned, which sail size to choose will depend. I have a code 2 ie small spin, I get a 9 sec credit for it, yeah it is 600#vs my 155 at 345. but going downwind wing on wing with the 155, I seem to go faster than the smallish cruise spin I have. SO while I am 9 secs slower in rating, I go about the same speed. So going with a smaller sail in this case, has no advantage.

Same as a folding vs nonfolding prop. Locally you get 9 secs for a fixed 2 blade vs a folder. One goes MORE than 9 secs a mile faster with a folder than a fixed, Even the Campbell. So if one is wanting to race reasonably competitive, one needs a folding prop vs a fixed.

Yesterday the wind was in the 10-20 range, initially, so we thru up a 140 vs 155, we still did 7+ down wind a few time, beat boats rated upwards of 15 secs faster in our division etc. Once the wind calmed down to the 15 knot range, the 155 went up, gained the lost 1/4 to 1/2 knot as the wind died. A 110 would have been slower yet as the wind went down!

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 09-11-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 316
Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Sanduskysailor is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

The credits for smaller headsails are just that, credits not true rating adjustments based on real performance. The A33 has a SA/D of 20.3 which is pretty good. The determining factor should be the average wind conditions in your area. If the wind, on average, is 10 knots or less go with the 155%. If the wind averages higher than that go with the smaller headsail and get the credit. The sail prices you mentioned seem about right although there are some less expensive alternatives across the border. I got a 155% Twaron (Kevlar) for less than $2,000 made with Dimension Flex cloth. The sail was made in the US.
Attached Thumbnails
new 120% genoa-jude4-1-1-1-.jpg  
CBinRI likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 09-11-2012
CBinRI's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 912
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 11
CBinRI is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonosail View Post
Rated LPG makes a BIG difference in PHRF racing. (especially for boats of moderate disp.)
Every district has a different 'datum' for the standard rating.
Many start from 155% of LP.
So it would be something like the following: (rating based on LARGEST sail in your inventory)
155% no change std rating
145% (+3)
135% (+5)
125% (+7)
etc.......... (some other factors I've left out)
In a long skinny boat, like this one, with a small foretriangle to begin with, overlap means speed upwind.
You want to at least think this through before you send big money on a headsail.
(I'm not selling sails.).
Just something to consider.
I bought a racing jib three or four years back. We went with kevlar, and did much better racing than we had with dacron. And although it is startingto show its age, it has held its shape much better than our last dacron jib. we do not use it cruising.

As to size, you should consider the prevailing conditions in your area. Because we sail in Narragansett Bay (where the winds are pretty consistent), we went for a 145 and got the three point PHRF credit (we think this worked out well for us). If you are in the Long Island Sound or an area where the winds are generally lighter, you may want to go for the full 155.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 09-11-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rhode island
Posts: 147
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
jfdubu is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

John F, My 4 cents.

7 years ago I was faced with the exact same question. New boat (to me) bag of rags for sails, desire for beer can and some club racing and Narragansett bay area cruising.

I bought a new dacron main, higher level fabric from an off shore source and the following year again a high quality dacron 135% jib, sourced offshore.

What I got were and still are very good working sails. I still win an occasional race and are always competitive. I make far more tactical and brain fart mistakes that faster sails would not correct.

That being said, Don't do what I did. Get the dacron sails but get them from a local loft. Make sure they come with check out from the sailmaker so you can learn from him/her how the sail is supposed to look and be trimmed at differant points of sail. You can gain a weath of knowledge that way not to mention having a service outlet should problems arise. The little bit extra you pay will be worth it.

Funny thing about leech curl, I constantly battle leech curl on a port tack, no problem on starboard. Haven't figured out why, I just send a guy down to adjust the leech line.

John W.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 09-11-2012
SchockT's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,382
Thanks: 0
Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 3
SchockT is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfdubu View Post

Funny thing about leech curl, I constantly battle leech curl on a port tack, no problem on starboard. Haven't figured out why, I just send a guy down to adjust the leech line.

John W.
It is strange that you have more leech tention on one tack. Have you checked your mast tune? Perhaps the tip is falling off to leeward more on one tack?
__________________
1979 Santana 30 Tall Rig
Hull#101
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 09-13-2012
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Rhode island
Posts: 147
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 13
jfdubu is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

Schock,

I pactically use a micrometer to tune the mast and I've re-tuned several times. Always the same. My guess is it has to do with the way the uv cover is sewn on some how tensions the leech more on one side whether it's in tension or compression.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 09-13-2012
SchockT's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,382
Thanks: 0
Thanked 22 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 3
SchockT is on a distinguished road
Re: new 120% genoa

Ah. A UV cover! Not the best thing for sail shape! That is likely the culprit. They are fine for cruisers that can't be bothered taking their sail down all season, but they have no place on a race boat!
__________________
1979 Santana 30 Tall Rig
Hull#101
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Where can I get this Genoa Car pin? Tanley Gear & Maintenance 16 11-25-2013 03:27 PM
When would you run with just the genoa? legarots General Discussion (sailing related) 30 10-20-2009 02:54 AM
Jib vs Genoa calamitas Learning to Sail 7 08-10-2007 11:29 PM
What is a Genoa? Kacper General Discussion (sailing related) 45 04-05-2007 03:23 PM
When to use genoa or jib bcooper67 Learning to Sail 1 09-16-2002 02:07 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:33 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012