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  #11  
Old 08-05-2012
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

Difficult to state all the facts but I tried. If he'd cause damage to the boat, I don't think his insurance company would have a leg to stand on - he had time to give room, space to give room and nobody asked him to push my boat into the shallows when I luffed up to avoid them.

In the middle of the channel when I gave way. He wanted clean wind and a clear lead and was annoyed that he didn't get it so took action by making sure I sailed into the reeds (and as I was luffing up to avoid them he made doubly sure by pushing me back into them).

You'd think a rule book would prevent such childish, tempetuous behaviour.

So the root cause lies with the rules (and perhaps his upbringing - his father is an ultra competitive racer in frequent contat with his insurance company).

In all other sports I can think of the rules are not open for interpretation. If the same mentality was applied you'd have judgements like "he tackled you and broke your hand but he only did it because you pushed him over 2 minutes previous - so that makes you both even."

So I guess m conclusion is: When will the ISAF get their act together and create complete indesputable rules?
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Old 08-05-2012
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

"You'd think a rule book would prevent such childish, tempetuous behaviour. "
It does. Ungentlemenly conduct is reason for a penalty, including being banned from racing.
Leaving your tiller and leaving your boat out of control might not be banned in the rules--but I'd sure as hell like to hear an explanation of how abandoning the helm is proper conduct. Likewise, ANY contact or assistance to another boat is frowned upon, and piushing another boat away with your hands--except as a LAST resort to prevent collision, is most unusual.

The rules say that if you are entitled to room, you're entitled to room. They don't differentiate between "I'm here because I made a dumb move" and "I'm here because aliens abducted me" they say, plainly, if you're entitled to room you're entitled to room. And part of racing, and using the rules to your advantage, is to FORCE another boat to fall back because you can claim rights over them. Duh? That's normal racing practice, if you can gan and exploit and advantage, you do.

Impossible to say why what happened, but it wouldn't be the first time a racing committee was wrong, and that's why the USYRA (excuse me, USSA) publishes a book of appeals, to try showing committees how not to go wrong.

"He said, she said" is always going to be a problem though.
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbylockes View Post
tempest, I tacked ahead of them and under them, they did not need to change course and they did not change course.
Then it appears that you are claiming that Rule 20 would apply here " Calling for room at an obstruction" ?

The leeward boat ( you) calls to the windward boat for room to tack at an obstuction. The windward boat can then either tack and give you room, or, if they feel that you have room to tack under them can call back and say
" You tack" If the windward boat tacks to give you room, then you must tack immediately after, you cannot continue sailing, even if it might give you advantage.

In your situation, it sounds like you did not have room to tack and the windward boat needed to give you room to tack or, tack away.

The other boat seems to be claiming that though you were leeward in the narrow channel, you placed yourself in the situation by making two choices,
One, to tack under them rather than dip. And, two, by not leaving yourself enough room when doing so to tack away from the obstruction without forcing them to tack.

So I would ask, by what rule does the other boat claim that they were not required to honor your request for room? Leaving aside for a moment the fact that they interfered with your boat by pushing it
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbylockes View Post
...So the root cause lies with the rules (and perhaps his upbringing - his father is an ultra competitive racer in frequent contat with his insurance company).

In all other sports I can think of the rules are not open for interpretation. If the same mentality was applied you'd have judgements like "he tackled you and broke your hand but he only did it because you pushed him over 2 minutes previous - so that makes you both even."

So I guess m conclusion is: When will the ISAF get their act together and create complete indesputable rules?
There is no such thing as indisputable rules. That's why we have protest committee hearings and courts of law and appeal courts and supreme courts - to settle such disputes. The facts are often vague and subject to interpretation, depending on all the attending circumstances, and, in courts of law, the trial judge makes findings of fact and conclusions of law, and the appeals courts review those findings and conclusions ad infinitum. The difference between a judge in a court of law and a protest committee is that the former is college trained and licensed by the state, and judging is his profession, while the latter is often a mere part-time, occasional volunteer, hopefully (but not always) with a little training and experience. By comparison with courts of law, not much is really at stake in a racing protest. What is settled usually amounts to bragging rights, and maybe a decorative piece of brass or glass. We can always hope and strive for perfect justice, but realistically, we can't expect it.

In a football game, highly trained referees are stationed all around the field to observe and call violations when they see them. It's hard enough to find trained volunteers for race committee, and it would be impossible to find enough volunteers to act in a similar capacity for yacht races, and to station them all around the course to act as on-site referees.

IMO, the fault here probably does not lie with the rules or with the protest committee, or with the ISAF. It is possible, however, that the protest committee here might have not been sufficiently knowledgeable of the rules. In some small sailing venues, the protest committee will consist of anyone who can be prevailed upon to serve on short notice, even if they aren't very familiar with the rules.

But, yacht racing is supposed to be a gentlemen's sport, in which we respect and comply with the rules, and we acknowledge our own violations, and we voluntarily sail our 360s or 720s, as appropriate. Most racers are gentlemen...some aren't.
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

It's basically a social sailing club that is run by a strange clique who like to maintain their championship title. I posted a more dangerous incident last year. There is no real commitee or true witnesses. The witness in this situation was actually the offenders team-mate who was sailing on a different boat for a change ( I could believe it when he confirmed that I was in the middle of the channel and instead of toeing the line of his team-mates' story). However as expected, the offender did not get disqualified for breaking rule 20 because it was in the witnesses interest of keeping the championship to ensure his teammate won the race. Which he did by saying I should fallen off and not tacked.

Their respective ages are 65 an 36. They essentially run the club and don't like people who beat them. A couple of years ago a young team joined and they started winning races. The young team had sailed together since they were kids. Within one season the 65 year old and 36 year old (chairman and secretary of the club) had an argument with them after a particular race. These 2 new members were the race referees (every team must do this at least once a season). The chairman and secretary came second and disputed the decision of shortening the course. The young team were of course utterly suprised by the ridiculous argument and the ensuing intimidation, after all they were the race referees only because they volunteered. Much to my annoyance, these good sailors never came back for another season.

I think my time has come not to sail with that club any more. This "national sailing referee" didn't even apologize for pushing the boat.
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

If an experienced national race referee doesn't honour the rules AND gets away with it, then there is really something very wrong with the rules.

similarly with the law: if anyone breaks the law regularly and always gets away with it - then the law gets changed.

That book sounds like a good idea, is it publicly available on the internet? The rules should be available in a wiki so that everyone can learn and the rules can evolve more naturally.
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

Here's an appeals decision:

CASE 33
A boat that hails for room to tack before safety requires her to tack is entitled
to receive room under rule 20.1(b), but by hailing at that time she breaks rule
20.3. An inside overlapped boat is entitled to room between the outside boat
and an obstruction under rule 19.2(b) even though she has tacked into the
inside overlapping position.

From.. http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...pdatedNov2011-[11669].pdf

The USSA Book is available on their website: Appeals
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

good links.

That reads like an offical appeal that exonerates me from my tack in the middle of the channel which my commitee considered an offence.
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

Just have fun - it is just a bunch of middle aged guys doing beer cans.

Most important race question
'who brought the beer'

2nd most important
"is the beer going to stay cold there"

My most enjoyable racing memories are of racing on a mid fleet boat - after the chute was hoisted, the music would come on, and a portable blender would come out, tropical drinks served,

We always came into the club smiling and happy.
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Old 08-05-2012
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Re: racing rules question narrow channel

Quote:
Originally Posted by WDS123 View Post
My most enjoyable racing memories are of racing on a mid fleet boat - after the chute was hoisted, the music would come on, and a portable blender would come out, tropical drinks served,

We always came into the club smiling and happy.
Now THAT'S racing.
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