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racing rules question narrow channel

8K views 53 replies 15 participants last post by  Peter06420 
#1 · (Edited)
I was sailing in the weekly competition in very light wind bf 1/2. The most favourable course to the first upwind mark was to sail between 2 reed islands. I was leading as I entered the narrow channel on starboard tack. The second place boat dipped under me slightly and we both sailed to use the full width of the channel before tacking again. I tacked onto port tack the second place boat onto starboard tack and we approached each other in the middle of the narrow channel. I knew I eyed the boat up and concluded i woud not get passed the starboard tack boat without him clipping the stern of my boat so I tacked under him. So we were in a situation in the middle of the narrow channel where I had tacked and need to gain moment as he began to pass me to windward. AS he began to pass, I said I'll need room shortly. To my astonishment he replied "no, you should've dipped me". As we both started to approach the reeds, both on the same tack just about level with each other, I requested room to tack. He repeated you should've dipped under me. I began my tack slowly as my bow touched the first reeds, repeating I need room. Incredibly, the guy left his tiller and pushed my boat away into the reeds with my hands and then tacked away. I protested. A witness stated that when I tacked I was in the middle of the narrow channel, of equal distance from either reed island. The other boat argued that I tacked myself into the problem and was too close to the reeds to tack. I argued dipping was out of the question as I was too far ahead and would've had to fall away drastically. I would've headed half-wind towards the reeds the other side, which was far worse than taking the moment out of the boat and heading to the other reeds at less speed. I argued tacking was not only a legal option but it was also the safest option.

The jury disagreed, they said I should not have tacked, but should've fallen off.

Funny thing, is the guy in that boat is a national official and protest room jury member for many many years. I feel this is the reason why the less experience jury sided with his take on the situation.

I'd like to know the thoughts of the sailnet racing community on this situation.
 
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#3 ·
I completed the tack in clean air and was accelerting in clean air . At which point he got the overlap on my stern. As I accelerated he caught me up further, then we were quite parallel but on the same tack and course but I was about 1 metre in front. I asked for room. When he refused my bow touched the first reed and I slowly started my tack (tacking with this big heavy open dinghy is slow!). At which point he stood up and pushed my boat into the reeds and made his tack off the momentum the push gave him.

The alterantive of falling away was risky because I would've sailed half-wind towards the oncoming boat (hard rudder would've been necessry to fall away from the lead position) I was sailing lone an he was with a partner. The dinghy has a 2 sails. Falling away and accelerating towards the other boat and the reed island to starboard and not knowing whether I'd still have the room to tack after he had sailed passed was not an attractive option. Too many unknowns.
However tacking the only problem was that he'd have to give me room and I had the right to tack.

The judgement of the "commitee"essentially says I had no right to tack, despite having the room to tack easily, and had to fall away.

I cannot believe a normal commitee would come to such a decision based on the ituation confirmed by the witness.

I simply saw it as a question of which reed island is it best to sail towards, quickly towards the reed island to starboard, risking a collision with the right of way boat and risking getting stuck in the reeds at speed. Or tacking towards the reed island to port which I might even be able to avoid as the island was ending. If I was on the other boat I would've expected the lead boat to tack and I would've duly given room.

I try to stay away from this sailor as much as possible when on the water as he is so reckless - then hides behind his reputation as a national sailing referee.
 
#5 ·
Ultimately, we weren't there, and we are only hearing your position without having an opportunity to hear the other person explain his own position. When you protested him, it became your obligation to prove that he violated a rule. In a case like this, timing and distances are crucial. It sounds like some witnesses might have supported your claim, and others might have seen it differently. If the testimony of witnesses was conflicting, then the committee probably concluded that you didn't meet your burden of proving the existence of the violation. When the two of you were present and couldn't agree on the facts, and on the application of the rules, and the witnesses are ambiguous, how can you expect the committee to DSQ the other boat?

Personally, I avoid protests like the plague. For a yacht racer, being on the losing end of a protest is like receiving the death penalty. Race committees won't impose the "death penalty" absent clear proof that it is warranted.
 
#6 ·
When crossing, you were the give-way vessel, by tacking to the leeward same tack are you allowed to then claim room? Don't you have to allow the windward boat to sail it's normal course as if you weren't there? Meaning you can't force them to head up or tack from it's normal heading, but rather in this situation you needed to leave room for yourself to tack under them if necessary?
 
#7 ·
My protest was about the pushing of my boat and them not giving me room (and worse still pushing my boat into the reeds with their hands). This was not desputed by the other boat. The committee agreed that the other boat was wrong in doing that.

However, the "committee" also agreed I tacked in the middle of the narrow channel, ahead and beneath the starboard tack boat, but they decided I should not have done this.

"You broke the rules and he broke the rules so no-one gets DSQ."

I'm wondering which rule they are refering to. Any ideas ?
 
#10 ·
My protest was about the pushing of my boat and them not giving me room (and worse still pushing my boat into the reeds with their hands). This was not desputed by the other boat. The committee agreed that the other boat was wrong in doing that.

However, the "committee" also agreed I tacked in the middle of the narrow channel, ahead and beneath the starboard tack boat, but they decided I should not have done this.

"You broke the rules and he broke the rules so no-one gets DSQ."

I'm wondering which rule they are refering to. Any ideas ?
If I had been you, I would have argued that the only question before them for decision was not whether I committed a violation, but whether he committed one. I would have said, "...even he knows I didn't commit a violation. He's an acknowledged rules expert, and if he thought I violated a rule, he would have protested me. Since the only protest before the committee is mine, the only question for the committee to decide is whether my protest is valid. Since he admits the violation, it seems to me that the answer, and the committee's duty, is clear."

That having been said, I still think there was enough ambiguity in the facts that we have been provided so that we can't fairly say that the committee made an incorrect decision.
 
#13 ·
Then it appears that you are claiming that Rule 20 would apply here " Calling for room at an obstruction" ?

The leeward boat ( you) calls to the windward boat for room to tack at an obstuction. The windward boat can then either tack and give you room, or, if they feel that you have room to tack under them can call back and say
" You tack" If the windward boat tacks to give you room, then you must tack immediately after, you cannot continue sailing, even if it might give you advantage.

In your situation, it sounds like you did not have room to tack and the windward boat needed to give you room to tack or, tack away.

The other boat seems to be claiming that though you were leeward in the narrow channel, you placed yourself in the situation by making two choices,
One, to tack under them rather than dip. And, two, by not leaving yourself enough room when doing so to tack away from the obstruction without forcing them to tack.

So I would ask, by what rule does the other boat claim that they were not required to honor your request for room? Leaving aside for a moment the fact that they interfered with your boat by pushing it
 
#11 ·
Difficult to state all the facts but I tried. If he'd cause damage to the boat, I don't think his insurance company would have a leg to stand on - he had time to give room, space to give room and nobody asked him to push my boat into the shallows when I luffed up to avoid them.

In the middle of the channel when I gave way. He wanted clean wind and a clear lead and was annoyed that he didn't get it so took action by making sure I sailed into the reeds (and as I was luffing up to avoid them he made doubly sure by pushing me back into them).

You'd think a rule book would prevent such childish, tempetuous behaviour.

So the root cause lies with the rules (and perhaps his upbringing - his father is an ultra competitive racer in frequent contat with his insurance company).

In all other sports I can think of the rules are not open for interpretation. If the same mentality was applied you'd have judgements like "he tackled you and broke your hand but he only did it because you pushed him over 2 minutes previous - so that makes you both even."

So I guess m conclusion is: When will the ISAF get their act together and create complete indesputable rules?
 
#14 ·
...So the root cause lies with the rules (and perhaps his upbringing - his father is an ultra competitive racer in frequent contat with his insurance company).

In all other sports I can think of the rules are not open for interpretation. If the same mentality was applied you'd have judgements like "he tackled you and broke your hand but he only did it because you pushed him over 2 minutes previous - so that makes you both even."

So I guess m conclusion is: When will the ISAF get their act together and create complete indesputable rules?
There is no such thing as indisputable rules. That's why we have protest committee hearings and courts of law and appeal courts and supreme courts - to settle such disputes. The facts are often vague and subject to interpretation, depending on all the attending circumstances, and, in courts of law, the trial judge makes findings of fact and conclusions of law, and the appeals courts review those findings and conclusions ad infinitum. The difference between a judge in a court of law and a protest committee is that the former is college trained and licensed by the state, and judging is his profession, while the latter is often a mere part-time, occasional volunteer, hopefully (but not always) with a little training and experience. By comparison with courts of law, not much is really at stake in a racing protest. What is settled usually amounts to bragging rights, and maybe a decorative piece of brass or glass. We can always hope and strive for perfect justice, but realistically, we can't expect it.

In a football game, highly trained referees are stationed all around the field to observe and call violations when they see them. It's hard enough to find trained volunteers for race committee, and it would be impossible to find enough volunteers to act in a similar capacity for yacht races, and to station them all around the course to act as on-site referees.

IMO, the fault here probably does not lie with the rules or with the protest committee, or with the ISAF. It is possible, however, that the protest committee here might have not been sufficiently knowledgeable of the rules. In some small sailing venues, the protest committee will consist of anyone who can be prevailed upon to serve on short notice, even if they aren't very familiar with the rules.

But, yacht racing is supposed to be a gentlemen's sport, in which we respect and comply with the rules, and we acknowledge our own violations, and we voluntarily sail our 360s or 720s, as appropriate. Most racers are gentlemen...some aren't.
 
#12 ·
"You'd think a rule book would prevent such childish, tempetuous behaviour. "
It does. Ungentlemenly conduct is reason for a penalty, including being banned from racing.
Leaving your tiller and leaving your boat out of control might not be banned in the rules--but I'd sure as hell like to hear an explanation of how abandoning the helm is proper conduct. Likewise, ANY contact or assistance to another boat is frowned upon, and piushing another boat away with your hands--except as a LAST resort to prevent collision, is most unusual.

The rules say that if you are entitled to room, you're entitled to room. They don't differentiate between "I'm here because I made a dumb move" and "I'm here because aliens abducted me" they say, plainly, if you're entitled to room you're entitled to room. And part of racing, and using the rules to your advantage, is to FORCE another boat to fall back because you can claim rights over them. Duh? That's normal racing practice, if you can gan and exploit and advantage, you do.

Impossible to say why what happened, but it wouldn't be the first time a racing committee was wrong, and that's why the USYRA (excuse me, USSA) publishes a book of appeals, to try showing committees how not to go wrong.

"He said, she said" is always going to be a problem though.
 
#15 ·
It's basically a social sailing club that is run by a strange clique who like to maintain their championship title. I posted a more dangerous incident last year. There is no real commitee or true witnesses. The witness in this situation was actually the offenders team-mate who was sailing on a different boat for a change ( I could believe it when he confirmed that I was in the middle of the channel and instead of toeing the line of his team-mates' story). However as expected, the offender did not get disqualified for breaking rule 20 because it was in the witnesses interest of keeping the championship to ensure his teammate won the race. Which he did by saying I should fallen off and not tacked.

Their respective ages are 65 an 36. They essentially run the club and don't like people who beat them. A couple of years ago a young team joined and they started winning races. The young team had sailed together since they were kids. Within one season the 65 year old and 36 year old (chairman and secretary of the club) had an argument with them after a particular race. These 2 new members were the race referees (every team must do this at least once a season). The chairman and secretary came second and disputed the decision of shortening the course. The young team were of course utterly suprised by the ridiculous argument and the ensuing intimidation, after all they were the race referees only because they volunteered. Much to my annoyance, these good sailors never came back for another season.

I think my time has come not to sail with that club any more. This "national sailing referee" didn't even apologize for pushing the boat.
 
#16 ·
If an experienced national race referee doesn't honour the rules AND gets away with it, then there is really something very wrong with the rules.

similarly with the law: if anyone breaks the law regularly and always gets away with it - then the law gets changed.

That book sounds like a good idea, is it publicly available on the internet? The rules should be available in a wiki so that everyone can learn and the rules can evolve more naturally.
 
#17 ·
Here's an appeals decision:

CASE 33
A boat that hails for room to tack before safety requires her to tack is entitled
to receive room under rule 20.1(b), but by hailing at that time she breaks rule
20.3. An inside overlapped boat is entitled to room between the outside boat
and an obstruction under rule 19.2(b) even though she has tacked into the
inside overlapping position.

From.. http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012updatedNov2011-[11669].pdf

The USSA Book is available on their website: Appeals
 
#19 ·
Just have fun - it is just a bunch of middle aged guys doing beer cans.

Most important race question
'who brought the beer'

2nd most important
"is the beer going to stay cold there"

My most enjoyable racing memories are of racing on a mid fleet boat - after the chute was hoisted, the music would come on, and a portable blender would come out, tropical drinks served,

We always came into the club smiling and happy.
 
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#21 ·
Regardless of the rules, pushing another persons boat is bad sportsmanship. I would try to take the high road, and not further compound anothers bad sportsmanship with my own, however if the deck is stacked there is no point in further competition.

There are plenty of race clubs, where the competition is fair, and rules are enforced evenly, (with some allowance for newbe's). And the other members are friendly, and work toward the best possible race for all, not how to take out the other boats.

I have gotten good advice from other club members, as well as techniques on how to improve my time, and abilities. I would go where I could sail and be appreciated.
 
#22 ·
its just a social evening sailing as they reminded me when I protested.. however collisions are not social events. I can't think of more anti-social behaviour than pushing a boat into the reeds after screaming that "should've fallen away". If the incident was a one-off I would've forgotten it but these incidents follow this sail referee like a bad smell. I'm indeed wondering where else I can sail.
 
#25 ·
I suspect no-one else would run the administration of the 'club'. No-one is particularly enthusiastic.

They have been the core members of the club since its inception 12 years ago, it is only the past 2 years that they took over because no-one else wanted to do it. They are doing their best to promote the club and get sponsorship (they used to run a harbour on the lake so they know alot of people) but despite their efforts the better sailors are leaving or have left. I'm also part of the club committee , but more a silent member with no real function just to make up the numbers so the club could deemed a legal club in the eyes of the local council. Year on year for the last 5 years members have been cancelling their subscriptions. I think its dropped from 200 to 36 paying members. There used to be at least 10+ boats each friday with 2 or 3 people in each boat. Now its barely 6 and some are single-handed. Other clubs on the lake are suffering a similar fate though. It makes me mad to think of their behaviour and how good sailors cancelled their subscriptions. My girlfriend just told me that she never became a member because of the shouting, aggressiveness and arrogance. Before I became a member they would tell yarns of fist-fights back on the dock after the race because someone cheated. It's such a shame these people can't play fairly without the need for a referee because it's such a nice lake and course.
 
#27 ·
"I think its dropped from 200 to 36 paying members."
So where did the other 164 people go? And if they didn't go somewhere else, that's your chance to ask them to form a new club with some different attitudes.

Meanwhile...you get a 10# Danforth and about six feet of line, attach it to your friend's keel, and watch the show when he gets into shallow water and his boat simply bogs down and anchors itself.
 
#28 ·
I'm in the club committee with these 3 other guys from the other team. I've penned a very short email (one sentence) to cancel my subscription from next year. And another email with the link to the rule that Tempest posted and that my decision to cancel description is not just based on the one incident but the atmosphere has been bad for some time. Not sure whether to send both, one, or none. Many thanks for the balanced responses to this. Much appreciated as I enjoy sailing on this lake from that harbour on a friday evening. I love the challenge of trying to sail as efficiently as possible. I only started sailing 7 years ago. It's pure magic plucking horse-power out of thin air, literally magic. Having passionate sailors to sail against is also important, however sailing against habitual aggression and disrespect cancels out enjoyment like a hole in the boat. It's a very, very tough decision! all the comments are very much appreciated. together they give a very balanced view.

Thanks!
 
#29 ·
Everyone has a different tolerance level for BS. This is supposed to be fun for you. If you find that it's more BS than you need then finding another more pleasant club might be the ticket.

On the other hand, I've never let anyone or anything drive me away from something that I love. I've always outlasted my enemies, detracters, distracters..
In my experience... they all step on their own D@@ks sooner or later.
So if this is a place that you really enjoy, would like to be part of, and feel that you can contribute to it's improvement, then stick around, kill em with kindness and professionalism and let them impale themselves. They will eventually self-implode.

If you do stick around, Gentle pressure- Relentlessly Applied.. could effect the changes you desire.
 
#30 ·
Everyone has a different tolerance level for BS. This is supposed to be fun for you. If you find that it's more BS than you need then finding another more pleasant club might be the ticket.

On the other hand, I've never let anyone or anything drive me away from something that I love. I've always outlasted my enemies, detracters, distracters..
In my experience... they all step on their own D@@ks sooner or later.
So if this is a place that you really enjoy, would like to be part of, and feel that you can contribute to it's improvement, then stick around, kill em with kindness and professionalism and let them impale themselves. They will eventually self-implode.

If you do stick around, Gentle pressure- Relentlessly Applied.. could effect the changes you desire.
This^

And like I said, just start beating the guy consistently. Winning's the best revenge.
 
#31 ·
tempest, smackdaddy I think you are right. gentle pressure might be worth ago before deciding to cancel my membership.

Funnily enough he just sent me an email to apologize for pushing my boat into the reeds but still thinks I was wrong for tacking in the middle of the channel.
Now to apply gentle pressure as I feel I have nothing to lose. I'm sending him the link you posted to the ruling from november 2011. He's a national sail referee. at least thats what he tells everyone.

This gentle pressure applied using the findings of ISAF will hopefully make him think twice next time before assuming he knows the rules better than anyone. Anything to dilute his cynical sailing tactics, before I really resign from the club!
 
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