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We raced last Sunday on the Hudson near the Tappan Zee.
One of the PHRF racing fleet was stopped by a Westchester county police boat.
I was not nearby when the sailboat was "pulled over" so I am not sure what prompted them to do so.
End result: stopped boat received a dnf for the race and a citation for "improper speed". WTF? Improper speed?
I guess all their flares were not expired and their pollution placards were in place, but "improper speed"? On a 30+ foot sailboat? Really?
If I find out more details I will post but at first blush this seems like the LEO's were having fun harassing these sailors, nothing more.
I would be interested in hearing the facts about this. Never heard of a sailboat being cited for excessive/improper speed. There must be something else going on.
@knotty,
Agreed. I do not know the full story and I was not on the stopped sailboat. Much I do not know.
@capttb,
That is all well and good for Newport Beach Harbor but the area this boat was stopped in is a navigable channel that tugs with barges and other commercial traffic come through at 10+ knots regularly.
I'm pretty sure the guy was not in any 5 mph speed limit area. He did say he kind of "buzzed" the police boat after he rounded an upwind mark. My guess is that the police boat thought the guy came too close to him and "pulled him over" for it.
I still don't get the "improper speed" citation though.
if your going to "buzz" a police boat you must be going at least 8 knotts .. I think I read that somewhere ..
seriously I really like finding out about these things and how different laws and stuff work in different areas I am interested to find out what really happened and why they were stopped.
Geeesh! The nerve of those cops; parking right next to a racing buoy and getting irked because the racer "buzzed" them?! Like sitting on the track at the Daytona 500 and pulling over the "speeders" whizzing by!:hothead
On the Hudson River we have many police boats. This has been written up extensively in local papers such as the Times Herald Record. One guy got stopped like 8 different times crossing Newburgh Bay a few years ago, each time by a different agaency. The local talk is that any boat with women in bikinis will get stopped at least 4 times in a day.
They stop boats just because that is the job. There are damn few rescues and almost no crime. Difficult to justify a $200,000 boat and two $100,000 salaries and then put no stops on the daily report. Many LE's on these boats come off as smug and heavy handed and they probably couldn't care less about a sailboat race. They want to make a stop, they make it. Expired flares are a favorite citation on the Hudson. And if they can't find anything to write, they write something vague. I have been stopped because they " couldn't see my registration sticker" I pointed to the bow and said - its right there. Then they said they wanted to do a safety check. Mandatory. The boat could have been stopped just because they were close and caught the attention of the officers.
Ok, so I did hear from the fellow who was stopped.
Apparently the Westchester County police boat was hovering near the #8 buoy which was the upwind mark.
The sailboat trying to make the mark initially tried to head in front of the police boat which was moving. Then he changed course to pass the police boat by the stern which was about when they stopped him.
Sounds to me as though the sailboat was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Perhaps I could also say that the police boat was as well.
Obviously the racer's course took him within close proximity to the police boat which seems to be the reason for boarding.
I still don't get the "improper speed" citation though.
I'll be giving any/all LE vessels a wide berth even when racing. We sometimes have to dodge tugs with barges and other large ships; this just adds one more category of boats to avoid.
Aren't the local authorities notified of scheduled races. Even if they wern't, it's usually pretty obvious when a race is in progress. What was the police boat doing sitting in the middle of a race?
Sounds like a simple case of cop on a power trip.
They are never wrong. Even when they are.
It sounds more like "improper speed close to another vessel", rather than "improper speed" per se. It also sounds a bit like the cops thought there was going to be a collision, got a little pissed, and went after the sailboat for anything they could think of. Depending on how close the sailboat cut it, I might be pissed too. Face it, racing boats are still obligated to follow the COLREGS, or Inland Rules, as the case may be.
One could always go to court, plead not guilty, then stall the procces as many times as possible, to make them wait for hours at a time til their case comes up, then ask the judge for another delay, on any excuse you can come up with. They hand out tickets on the assumption that you will simply plead guilty, which only encourages them to be abusive.
Yes, that is one of the things some club members are hoping the club will do is notify the various LE authorities of our racing schedule, including the buoys we use and our racing schedule.
I agree that the cop(s) wanted to issue some kind of citation to him and when they found that his flares were un-expired, pollution placards in place, adequate pfds they chose "inappropriate speed".
@SBS,
I'm sure that is what the LEO's on the police boat thought. The conditions were light winds (10 k or less) so he could not have been going much more than 5 knots BUT he was likely quite close to them.
If I got this citation I would protest it in court though. Poor little 40' police boat with 400 HP engines threatened by sailboat moving 5 mph.
Another suggestion I heard was for the owner to frame the citation which is essentially for "speeding" in a keel sailboat. How often does that happen?
The cops probably felt it was bold to sail so close to them, they were probably unaware the buoy was a marker, or that a race was even going on. Or they may have thought it was annoying that all those sailboats were cluttering up the channel.
Isn't a power boat still to give way to a sailboat under sail? If they kept heading across the bow of the police boat I thought the police would have to give way.
Not necessarily. The sailboat is the "stand on" vessel and must maintain his course. The police boat was the "give way" vessel.
If the sailboat was rapidly changing course while rounding a mark he was not "standing" on his course.
This is a regular argument between power and sailboats. It makes things very difficult for a powerboat trying to stay out of the way of a sailboat when the sailboat jibes and tacks and demands that the powerboat keep changing course to stay out of its way. If this is what happened I don't blame the cops for being ticked off.
This is nothing more than abuse of power. I'd fight this tooth and nail.
Color regs do apply and the LEOs either don't know them (bad enough) or feel that they're above the law (even worse).
The sailboat didn't break any laws. Period. I honestly would try and make an example out of this situation and involve people from the club and other local officials. It's bull$hit. They have nothing else better to do so they abuse the little power that has been given to them.
This is nothing more than abuse of power. I'd fight this tooth and nail.
Color regs do apply and the LEOs either don't know them (bad enough) or feel that they're above the law (even worse).
The sailboat didn't break any laws. Period. I honestly would try and make an example out of this situation and involve people from the club and other local officials. It's bull$hit. They have nothing else better to do so they abuse the little power that has been given to them.
While part of me agrees with this sentiment the slightly more practical side of me thinks that it is important to pick your battles wisely. In this case I believe that the owner who was given a citation may very well see it thrown out in court.
There is an active racing program at this club and I am certain that some action (however minor) will be undertaken on behalf of the racers.
Yes, Minne.
I heard from the owner of the sailboat who was stopped.
He used the word "buzzed" to describe how he encountered the police boat. He was in pretty close quarters with the fuzz and initially attempted to pass their bow but changed course to pass them astern. The boats had to be in close proximity.
The sailboat owner thought he was racing and trying to make his upwind mark.
The police boat thought the sailboat was razzing him by getting so close.
If the police boat had not been hanging around the windward mark this would likely not have happened.
Interesting situation. I'm trying to think of how I would handle it. I do not think I would have buzzed the LEO, but if I did, I would have shouted an apology to be sure we were good. I wonder what they actually did. Any chance they felt the LEO was in the way and deserved it? If so..........
A sailboat in a race will maneuver much much closer than someone who is not in a race or a racer.
Many cross tacking situations the give way boat will miss the stern of the stand on vessel by just a foot or two. It's normal in racing but freaks the non racers out.
I guess the cops don't know nothing about racing.
Stupid of them.
The racer should take it to court.
The racer should take it into account. If you race, the idea that you come in much closer quarter than most are comfortable with, should be well understood. It would typically take a bit of diplomacy and tact to undertstand that and defuse a situation, before it becomes an issue.
While these LEOs could be jackwads, all LEOs deal with aggressive "I hate LEO" personalities everyday. Easy job to become jaded before you've ever done anything.
I don't know what an LEO is but water police should understand what goes on in their jurisdiction.
Many racers have been in races where one mark stuffed up means much more than one race.
When I was doing Olympic trials the whole fleet finished inside 2 minutes. The difference between one tiny slip up was the difference between getting a place and coming 14th.
Even 8 year old kids in Optimists are going to shave the butt of a boat that's between them and a mark.
Yup, I do it all the time with another sailboat on a conflicting tack. At least close enough that non-sailing passengers think we're going to crash. Usually, the other skipper and I pass a non-plussed waive from our respective side deck perch.
I would never do that with a power boat, especially an LEO (law enforcement officer) that I would have no reason to think would understand.
Yes, lets bow down to the all powerful LEOs who couldn't possibly be aware of their surroundings and the situation of being in the MIDDLE of a frickin' ongoing race. Their job is not to escalate a situation or create a hazard. Yet, they managed to do both. Another example of a brain dead captain with authority. Also, please show me the sailboat that can outmaneuver/outrun the LEO's craft.
At five to six knots this situation had to develop slowly. Maybe a call on the VHF to alert the LEO that he was parked in the middle of an ongoing race?
And maybe once the sailboat was stopped and the situation explained the LEO could have chosen "protect and serve" over "harass and ticket"?
The sailor could have taken steps to mitigate the situation. Especially knowing that they're dealing with a law enforcement culture in that area whose behavior has attracted criticism from the press and a US Senator.
I am with those who suggested a call on channel 16 vhf to the police boat to warn him your intended course would be close to him if he remained near the navigation buoy.
I am sure that the olympic trials are very cutthroat and every millisecond counts. This was not the olympics but a Sunday around the cans race. Likelyhood of losing 1 more Sardine dish prize is not much.
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