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Sabre 28 - lee helm on a starboard tack

7K views 18 replies 13 participants last post by  Bleemus 
#1 ·
Hi, all.

I recently purchased a Sabre 28 MKII and have noticed a bit of odd behavior: When I am on a port tack I have a fair amount of weather helm, but when I am on starboard tack I have lee helm. Does anyone know what might cause this, or if this a known characteristic of the Sabre 28s? I have also noticed that the tiller feels heavy when motoring. I am worried that the tiller may be bent or, even worse, the keel.

Thanks so much,
Sam
 
#2 ·
Hmmmm, just brainstorming here. Does the Sabre 28 have that off center Drive Shaft and prop that other Sabre models have? Does it have the same type of prop that came on the boat?

Sail trim can affect helm. Does the boat have the original sail configuration or has a previous owner changed the size of the sails, the mast, or the boom, or the configuration in any way?

Can you correct the weather helm and lee helm by reducing either the main or jib?

Do you experience it in all levels of wind?

I would think that it would be hard to bend the keel without there being leaks.

If the rudder was bent you would still correct for that with the wheel. The only thing that would change would be the point on the wheel that would be the center and cause the boat to go straight.

I am no marine engineer so that is the limit of my thoughts on the subject. But I am very interested to hear what other, more experienced and knowledgeable people, have the say and to learn what you find out.
 
#3 ·
How is your mainsheet set up. Is it on a traveler, and if so, is the block off set to either port or starboard? If you don't have a traveler, is the main sheet centered? It sounds more like a sail trim issue than some kind of bent keel. I'm guessing that sail trim issue has to do with how your mainsheet is configured.

I have a strange no traveler set up, with a block kind of out board on either side, and I do need to adjust my main sheet every time after tacking
 
#4 ·
Having lee helm on one tack and weather on the other is unusual. Have you checked to see if the mast is centered in the boat? You can use a halyard to do that by pulling it tight at the port and stbd shroud bases and seeing if they measure the same. And the suggestion about checking that the traveler is on center is a good one.

As to the tiller being heavy when motoring, if its OK when sailing, then it's most likely not bent or anything like that.
 
#5 ·
Bent rudder effect would vary with speed. Depending on the bend it might require quite a bit of effort to hold it to maintain a straight course and it would be worse at higher speed.
Yes that could be seen as what you describe as lee helm on one tack and weather helm on the other... but you would also notice needing to hold the helm always to the same side, regardless of tacking, reaching or running.

Bent tiller would be visible and mainly a cosmetic issue.
 
#6 ·
It's been our experience that many boats are better on one tack than the other, remember that the molds were likely hand built, and anything may not be symmetric. But going all the way from weather helm on one to lee on the other is more than I've seen. Here's the potential easy fixes:

- The mast is not centered port/starboard - you can check this with a halyard and adjust your stays
- The weight is not distributed evenly port/starboard - is the thing listing, are there tanks on one side empty and other full, have you got heavy stuff on one side not the other.
- You are trimmed funny. Traveller, jib leads, something different one side than the other. You are trimming the jib in to tight on one tack, and the main on the other. Jib trimmed in will tend towards lee helm (pulling the bow down wind), main trimmed in will tend towards weather helm (pulling the stern down wind).

Hard fixes:

- Rudder not in the middle, not shaped the same on both sides, bent shaft
- Keel not centered, bent, etc.
- Hull shape from the factory not symmetric
- Mast not in the middle of the deck

It is not unusual on any sailboat to feel some side pressure on the rudder from propeller rotation...so I wouldn't worry about that.

Try the easy fixes first :) Sabre's have a good reputation, I'd be surprised if this was a factory defect.
 
#7 ·
I owned a Sabre 28-II for 20 years- great boat. Weather helm on one tack and lee helm on the other was never a problem so it is not an inherent problem with the design. As others have opined my guess is a bent rudder shaft. I know of at least one other S28 owner who had a bent rudder shaft. Good news is that the rudder is only held in with 2 bolts. Bad news is that access is through aft lazarette and is tight. Too tight for me but not for my wife. The bolts can be frozen and can be an absolute pain to get out the first time.
 
#8 ·
I saw this thread and thought, "Man, how many people can possibly have bought a Sabre recently that had lee helm?"

I'm far too inexperienced and ignorant to be able to offer anything that these folks or Kyle and Tyler haven't already speculated on. Just wanted to pop in to say that I hope you get it straightened out (pun intended, of course), and hopefully it won't prove to be a heinously costly issue. Great to meet you last night, and good luck with the boat!

- Walker
 
#9 ·
Rashly assuming you had a survey done before the purchase, and that the boat was hauled and you and the surveyor both looked under it, there were no damages or repairs seen on the keel or hull?

If it wasn't hauled, it should be, to confirm that. If it was surveyed and no problems mentioned, I'd put that last.

This could be a good time to get a rigging guide, either a book, some web printouts, or to visit a loft (Any chance the sails on your boat come from a loft that has a local branch? they'll gladly talk with you.) and pick up a 50-100' steel tape measure aka surveyor's tape. You should start an annual tradition of checking the entire rig to make sure it is centered, that the mast rake is correct, that everything is tuned properly. Not hard or expensive overall, and the performance differences can be huge.
Sometimes, you can even ask nicely and the loft will send someone out for a sail with you. One never knows.

Odds are that something is out of whack, but the best way to make sure you are fixing the problem (and not masking it or adding another one) is to start with the basics, make sure all the things that need to be aligned (mast & rigging) are, and only after you've eliminated all that stuff, to worry about hauling it and checking the bottom. Sabre (new or old) have a great reputation and unless someone seriously dented the boat, the keel will be properly aligned.

The rudder is something else again. Rudders have been known to fail from internal water damage and if that turns out to be involved, it can be a major project. Worry about that after you've done the easier stuff.
 
#10 ·
Something is seriously wrong. It could be the rig (most likely and hopefully) is poorly tuned, the rudder is bent or attached off center, the keel is cockeyed. Or there is a serious sail trim imbalance, not just a little bit off but if this is it I would think it would be visible from a picture 200' away.

If I had to bet I think you mast tuning is all messed up, with the base off center, the partners off center, and the top way off center.
 
#11 ·
If it was a bent rudder or keel, it would manifest itself while motoring, not just while sailing. The OP described the helm as heavy, but didn't mention it pulling one way or another.

This pretty well eliminates the possibility that it's an underwater control surface causing it to turn.

That leaves rig as the logical cause of the problem. Lots of new boat owners make errors in trim while they get to know the boat. Even experienced sailors will take some time to get their rig figured out. Especially if it has a few idiosyncrasies, anda lot of older boats do.
 
#12 ·
I'm going with what others have pointed out. Start with the basics.
Get ahold of a loos gauge and maybe even start by removing the jib (if you have roller furling).
Take some of the tension out of the rig and center the mast.
Tune everything to specs then go out sailing and look straight up the mast on each tack, see what's is happening. Boats are not symmetrical, you may need to adjust on one tack or the other to keep the mast straight.
There is loads of info on rig tuning... Here is one... C&C Yachts - C&C Photo Album & Resource Center - tuning tips - tuning the mast

One oddball question... is it possible you have some crazy growth on the bottom that is on one side but not on the other? Either way, a good bottom cleaning wouldn't hurt :)
 
#13 ·
Actually this case I would not start with the wires. Having weather healm on one tack and lee helm on the other is most likely a mast placement issue. If I had to guess I would bet the bottom of the mast is off center, pulling the entire rig out of alignment. So I would start there, confirm that the mast but is in the center of the boat, then do the same with the partners. Only once those are set and confirmed would I move on to trying to tune the wires.
 
#14 ·
Agree with Stumble.

A too loose cap shroud on one side or a 'failing' chain plate on one side can do this.

Many of the smaller and older Sabers had their propshaft set at an offset angle to the boat's centerline. Such would cause 'heavy helm' when motoring.
Many boats when under power will normally have a 'heavy helm' to one side due to 'torque' from the prop. Duch boats with 'right handed' props will usually alway be in a slight turn to PORT when going forward and the wheel/tiller has to be held at some angle to compensate.
 
#15 ·
Hey Rich,

Having had a Sabre 28 with offset prop for 20 years I can tell you that it did not have a heavy helm. The prop offset counteracts the torque of the prop and there is no helm. Additionally the rudder does not flutter at all. The boat backs straight with no prop walk which is disconcerting for those who are used to a boat pulling in one direction in reverse.

The mast on the S28 is deck stepped. The mast step fitting is fixed with a male protrusion. The mast butt has has a plug with female casting. No way to get that wrong and I would be amazed if wrong from the factory. Possibility that mast is severely out of tune or bent.
 
#16 ·
Hey Rich,

The mast on the S28 is deck stepped. The mast step fitting is fixed with a male protrusion. The mast butt has has a plug with female casting. No way to get that wrong and I would be amazed if wrong from the factory. Possibility that mast is severely out of tune or bent.
Actually it is pretty common for mast steps to be mounted in the wrong place. In fact it is so common that unless you have had it professionally confirmed, which includes shooting a laser down the middle of the boat I would bet money that it isn't. And it really doesn't take much to knock a boat all out of whack. Deck steps are better in this regard because the entire mast gets carried just slightly to one side or the other, while on a keel step a slight allignment issue is magnified by the partners.

Think of it this way, if you have a mast that is 60' above the deck and 6' below the deck, and the mast at the partners is perfectly centered. But the mast base is 1/2" out of center, the top of the mast will be 5 inches off. If you fail to fix the base and tune the mast so it is centered (by measuring chainplate to chainplate with a halyard) you will actually induce a serious bend into mast.

Even a .1" misalignment of the base ends up with the mast 1" off center.

Now if the base is 1/2" off center, and the partners are 1/2" off center the other way the top of the mast is 10 inches off center. The problems compound.

And always remember that the partners themselves are not necessarily centered. On some molds it is pretty common for the mast to be closer to one edge than the other. The old J-35 mold for instance requires the mast to be about 3/8" closer to the edge of the port partner than the starboard, while the new deck mold is the exact opposite.

Some yards are better than others of course, but frankly I have seen high end builders with all sorts of stuff out of allignment. Which is why the first thing a race boat does when it's new is break out the tape measure, templates, and the laser strait edge and start measuring stuff.

Finding keels bolted on off center is actually pretty common (+\- 2" isn't unusual), rudders mis-mounted by an inch are common, gudgeons that don't line up with the center line is almost assumed. Rudder posts that aren't verticle... Now on most boats what happens is all the slight imperfections add up to close to neutral so they even each other out. But sometimes you get a boat where they all wind up on the wrong side and you have a problem child that never really feels right. Until you fix it all.

In this case... I still bet the mast is out of whack.
 
#17 ·
Phew! a lot of information here. I will try to answer as many questions as I can:

- We have a standard 2 bladed, non-feathering, no-folding prop that is offset (exits to the left of the rudder). This was my initial thought on what might causing the odd behavior, but I do not think it would be enough drag to cause what I am experiencing.
- The tiller DOES pull to one side when motoring (I believe it pull to port, but don't hold me to that). The effect is pretty immediate when the boat starts moving.
- There is evidence of what the surveyor called a lite grounding. There are a few scrapes of lead taken off to leading edge corner of the keel.
- The surveyor did not notice the rudder being bent, or the keel being off-center/bent. The rudder was incredibly dry... almost amazingly so.
- The previous owner put the boat through a MAJOR refit over 2 years at Great Island Boat Yard in Harpswell ME. While it is possible that the boat yard put the mast step in the wrong place I highly doubt it given the quality of the work and caliber of their customers. Luckily the previous owner had all the work done because there is no chance I would have been able to afford it. All of the hardware was re-anodized so the mast step was certainly removed from the deck. All of the chain-plates were replaced so it possible, although unlikely, that were in the wrong place.
- There is no chance of growth, especially on the port side as that is the side we tie up on.
- The rig is almost certainly out of tune. Do any of you have suggestions on good books/articles/etc. on rig tuning? Would my best bet be to find a professional?

I live within easy sailing distance of Sabre so I think my next step might be contacting them. Maybe it is something they could look at and give me some suggestions.
I have been talking with the previous owner, whom I trust, and he said this wasn't an issue for him two years ago when the boat was last in the water.

Thanks, All!

- Sam
 
#18 ·
With the confirmation that the boat was surveyed and the keel and rudder examined, it looks more and more like something with the rig. Time to follow the suggestions you got about checking to see if the mast is centered, etc.
 
#19 ·
Get a long measuring tape, attach to main halyard, hoist it fully and measure to each toe rail at shrouds. I bet it is off by quite a bit and that is where I would start. Until you know the masthead is dead center everything else is a waste of time. The tape won't stretch like a halyard and you can get better idea of where you stand.


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