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Replacing Chainplates on a Sabre 34

14K views 28 replies 11 participants last post by  tfliveright 
#1 ·
We saw a Sabre 34 that had been reduced $13K because the chainplates need replacing. I'm pretty sure they are embedded.

Does that cost sound about right if you were to have a reputable yard do the work?

The pics look great. The bio looks pretty good. I could buy the boat today, for what it's priced at, but it would still need the chainplates replaced and probably some other work.
 
#2 ·
I would hope you could have a yard replace the chain plates for under $15k. I wonder if it is just the shroud chain plates or if the fore and aft stay chain plates need replacing as well?

Sounds to me as though Sabre did the chain plates on that 34' in the same way as Tartan did them on my 27' back in 1967. The chain plates are glassed into knee walls, often with a wood core. The problem with this arrangement is that eventually water gets into the knee wall. Even stainless steel will corrode when wet when it is not in contact with air. The solution that other T27 owners have come up with is to move the knee wall just enough so that the chain plates can be mounted outside the knee wall. This way the chain plates can be in contact with air and can be inspected.

I'd say do it yourself and save a bundle of money except that it can be a very awkward, messy and tedious job to do - depending on the interior set up. It should not cost that much for new chain plates by themselves, nor should the epoxy resin/cloth but the labor involved is another story.

This job is still on my 'honey do' list.
 
#3 ·
When we were at the show, we were on the Sabre 456 and the salesman said the chainplates were embedded so that any water seeping in from above won't bleed through and ruin the interior woodwork. :confused: He pointed to where they were and I saw no way to visually inspect them. I imagined them sitting in moisture and crevice corrosion attacking them. I'm thinking the 34 may have the same kind of setup.

When I read the price had been reduced $13K because the chainplates needed replacing, I guessed it was because they were embedded and most, if not all of them, needed replacing.

WingNWing suggested mounting them on the exterior. Looking at the hull, I don't see this being a problem aesthetically, I just don't know the integrity of the hull where they would need to be bolted in.

If I had the boat sitting in my back yard, I could tinker with it over the winter and maybe even do it myself but I'd have to KNOW that what I'm doing is being done right and that one day the rig wasn't going to come crashing down because I was too cheap or too uneducated to make sure it's done right.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Julie,
Yes, crevice corrosion. SS even rusts when it gets wet all sealed in FRP. I know this because our aft chain plate pulled up about 1/4" - 1/2" while we were sailing.
When we dug out the knee wall the SS bolts had rusted badly and the wood core had turned to soil. At the time I fixed that one I just re-did what had originally been done. Now I would do it differently and mount the chain plate outside the knee wall of FRP.

You can think about relocating the chain plates to outside the hull for the shrouds and even after chain plate. The main consideration for the shroud chain plates is if you will lose more sheeting angle for the jib such that it will not head into the wind as well. For now I'm going to keep my chain plates inboard, as they were designed to be by Sparkman & Stephens. I don't feel qualified to 2nd guess these designers.

I like the look of the outboard chain plates on boats that have them. I'd hate to go through with the work (and expense) of locating the chain plates outside, on the hull only to find out that there were unintended consequences. You very well might need longer shrouds to accommodate the new chain plate position.

I just love what the Sabre salesperson told you about the chain plates: "the chainplates were embedded so that any water seeping in from above won't bleed through and ruin the interior woodwork." Right, the water that does seep in will only slowly attack the integrity of the chain plate! I'd rather do a little cosmetic cabin refinishing work and know that my chain plates were up for the job they are expected to do. The boat builders do it this way because it is easier and cheaper for them and by the time any problems do start to arise the boats are long past warranty and it is your problem, not theirs.

Otherwise Sabres enjoy a quite good reputation.
 
#5 ·
Good point about changing the location. I hadn't thought about how it would affect the design. I wouldn't want to mess with that.

After dreaming about owning my own boat (some tell me it's a masochist's dream) ever since stepping on that old 43' Alden when I was 19, finding this boat gave me the opportunity to realize that dream, even though I'd have to come up with the money to fix it before I could sail it. Just being on it would be enough, for a while. But it's like buying a house, once you own it, you find ways to make it liveable.

Still, it's tempting. Maybe I could build a pond in my back yard and put it in there and when I need a fix I walk out the back door and hop aboard and play pirate. And if my imagination isn't child-like enough, there's always rum! :D
 
#9 ·
Yes, it looks like it's the Mk1. The one we were looking at was built in 1978.

Any links on the Sabre 34'? It is a boat maker with a good rep. Sabre also made a few different 'flavors' of the 34' sailboat. Which one is this one? SABRE 34 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
There is a fin keel model, center board model, winged keel model and one other.
Owning a boat is a bit masochistic. Around here you would paying $1K+ for winter and $2K+ for a slip every year. The sayings about B.O.A.T. meaning bring out another thousand and ripping up $100 bills in a cold shower are largely true.
The cheapest way to get sailing is on OPB's (other people's boats). You have plenty of experience from what I've read and I bet there are some racers who would like competent crew, if you tolerate racing.
If you don't swing that way (racing sailboats) then your only other choice is to buy your own and realize that 'she' owns you and budget accordingly.
If you like to play pirate you should meet WingNWing from Annapolis. I understand that she dresses up like a pirate every chance she gets!
Pond in the back yard and rum; not so childlike.
The boat you linked to looks like the one. The keel on "ours" is a fin and looks to be about 5.5'. That matches with the one on SailboatData.

This is looking more and more interesting. Could it be possible the hull needs rework as part of the chainplate replacement?

We spent the evening with "The Wings" in the cockpit of their boat while in Annapolis for the show. We had a great time! At the end of the evening I was asking, "But why is the RUM gone?" :D
 
#7 ·
I can't speak to the chain plate issue, but can recommend the Sabre 34 as a good sailing boat and a reasonable cruiser.
CraigToo (C2) has a mid-80's model. You can PM him here or on anything sailing and get a good review.
 
#8 ·
Any links on the Sabre 34'? It is a boat maker with a good rep. Sabre also made a few different 'flavors' of the 34' sailboat. Which one is this one? SABRE 34 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
There is a fin keel model, center board model, winged keel model and one other.
Owning a boat is a bit masochistic. Around here you would paying $1K+ for winter and $2K+ for a slip every year. The sayings about B.O.A.T. meaning bring out another thousand and ripping up $100 bills in a cold shower are largely true.
The cheapest way to get sailing is on OPB's (other people's boats). You have plenty of experience from what I've read and I bet there are some racers who would like competent crew, if you tolerate racing.
If you don't swing that way (racing sailboats) then your only other choice is to buy your own and realize that 'she' owns you and budget accordingly.
If you like to play pirate you should meet WingNWing from Annapolis. I understand that she dresses up like a pirate every chance she gets!
Pond in the back yard and rum; not so childlike.
 
#10 ·
Julie.. in this listing you can see the port aft chainplate bolts and backing washers in the cubby.. I imagine they are all installed this way as MS describes.. This is a pretty basic DIY once you've got the new plates made up.

Pic # 4 shows the three chainplate locations on deck... pic #12 shows what I'm describing above.

Pretty boat!

View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com
 
#11 ·
Julie.. in this listing you can see the port aft chainplate bolts and backing washers in the cubby.. I imagine they are all installed this way as MS describes.. This is a pretty basic DIY once you've got the new plates made up.

Pic # 4 shows the three chainplate locations on deck... pic #12 shows what I'm describing above.
Thanks! I see where they are bolted in and they are accessible. That shows in #13, 14 & 16 too. Looks pretty simple. I'm a little confused about the $13K reduction in the one we looked at.

I'll need to do a little more research. :cool:
 
#12 ·
Julie,

If the construction is similar to my 1985 Sabre 34; As Maine Sail says the chainplate replacement is pretty simple. However, if the chainplates are corroded and need replacing it you might have the additional problem of having to replace the bulkheads that they are attached to? ( to be determined) In which case, you would need to step the mast, remove all the wood trim and cabinetry to access the bulkheads. A proper inspection would determine if the bulkheads needed replacement. On my vessel, Sabre covered them with vinyl, so you might have to peel some of that back to expose the wood and sound it out, or use an awl or something to determine if the water intrusion caused any rot. Also these bulkheads are tabbed in to the hull. They would need to be removed and the old tabbing would need to be ground out before the new bulkheads could be made up and tabbed in. ( if you can get the old bulkheads out in one piece you can use them as templates, otherwise you could try to template them in place, before removal. If the above is the case, this may not be as simple as just replacing the chainplates, which is pretty straightforward.

I'm going to try to attach a photo of an example.



If the bulkheads have any rot, this is a much larger project than simply replacing the chainplates. Most of the bulkheads are pretty accessible. The forward shroud in the Head is the most buried. If you have any dimpling of the hull around the chainplates, it would be one indication that the bulkheads have been weakened. I don't want to scare you, but be careful and inspect everything.
 
#15 ·
I just re-read the disclaimer: price was just reduced $13,000 to allow for repairs where the shroud's chainplate attaches to the inside of the hull

This sounds like structural repairs to the hull are needed. Scaring me off isn't what concerns me. Buying a huge problem does.
 
#17 ·
JulieMor,
We own a 1984 Sabre 34, a Mk I just like the 1978. As Maine Sail mentioned, it's very easy to replace the chainplates on the S34-I. We simply unbolted all of them, inspected, and ultimately replaced them. We had Garhauer Marine make us new chainplates, since the price they offered was excellent as was the workmanship.

As others have also mentioned, I would question whether the reduction in price is because there is rot in one or more of the bulkheads to which the chainplates attach. This would cause the repair costs to sky rocket, unless of course you're capable of doing the repair yourself and have the desire to do so.

Hope that helps!
-J
 
#24 ·
JulieMor,
We own a 1984 Sabre 34, a Mk I just like the 1978. As Maine Sail mentioned, it's very easy to replace the chainplates on the S34-I. We simply unbolted all of them, inspected, and ultimately replaced them. We had Garhauer Marine make us new chainplates, since the price they offered was excellent as was the workmanship.

As others have also mentioned, I would question whether the reduction in price is because there is rot in one or more of the bulkheads to which the chainplates attach. This would cause the repair costs to sky rocket, unless of course you're capable of doing the repair yourself and have the desire to do so.

Hope that helps!
-J
Hello Julie,
I know your chain plate discussion goes back a ways but in hopes that you get this, I am close to closing on a Sabre 34 MKI located in Maine but surveyor points to needing chain plates replaced. Given the absence of folks to do the replacement job (I have found fabricators), I'm wondering if you did the plate removal and replacement yourself. If so, would tell me how that went and what the longer term outcome was? Also, you mentioned Garhauer; where are they located? Any info is greatly appreciated!!!
 
#19 ·
I'm doing the checks & balances. I don't want to get caught in that trap.

The problem is this, let's say I plan on spending $30K for the boat after all is said and done. If I have to wait until I have $30K on hand, that day may never come. Living on a fixed income means you never get a raise while the price of everything goes up. That's a very real scenario.

But buying anything now will not mean buying something in such bad shape I can't sail for years or that it's going to break me. I won't do that. I have my experience in construction to draw on and that should at least give me enough background to know a disaster when I see it.

Right now I'm pricing out everything I can to see what the materials would add up to for that particular boat to be sailable and be to our liking. I've already started a spreadsheet. Then I'm throwing in labor I can't do and another 10%-20% on top of that. If I arrive outside what comparable S34s are going for, it's time to move on.

Maybe I'll apply for employment at Sabre, learn the skills and use them to help make owning a less painful reality. ;)
 
#21 ·
Julie,

As others have guessed, that boat has major problems. The first picture is the port upper shroud chainplate, and it's really bad. The bolts at the bottom end have crushed the plywood -- very rotten. The chainplates themselves are probably in decent shape (but need inspection anyway). Josrulz replaced his for something like $400, so even if they are bad it's not an issue.

What has happened is that the chainplates have been allowed to leak. The water has run into the boat, and soaked the plywood knees, which have rotted. To get them out, you'll be removing cabinetry, and then the knee and glass, and then re-doing. If it's just this one, that may be an OK project (of course, to leak into the boat, it had to leak THROUGH the deck, so you may have deck core rot too -- a bad thing as well). But if it's more than one, you're going to have to pay big time for repairs.

If you go see the boat, each of the 6 chainplate knees are covered with a U-shaped teak cover strip along the edge. They are held on with very small nails. Grab ahold of the teak and pull -- it will come off in your hands. Then you can see the edge of the plywood, and assess the extent of damage. Note that my surveyor did not do this simple task (fortunately, I had and knew what I was getting), so just because a surveyor finds no rot doesn't mean you are all-clear. After you inspect, the covers push right back on.

Harry
Analysis
'79 Sabre 34 MK1
Mill Creek, Annapolis
 
#22 ·
Thank you Harry. From everything I've learned, yes, the boat has major problems. The worst could be the wet core in the deck. But it looked like it also needed a new engine. Dave said the engine looked neglected. That could be why the wood rotted too, neglect. Anyway, before I could make an offer someone else did.

Interestingly enough, the boat fell off the Yachtworld listing for a bit then reappeared. I've been told by a friend it's still under contract pending a survey. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes back on the market, unless the buyer wants a serious project boat and gets the boat for next to nothing.

We've postponed the boat search until the house is sold. Then we can decide where to move to and we'll take up the search again (if there's any money left!)
 
#23 ·
Before I knew the boat had a contract on it, I had contacted Sabre to inquire about what would be the proper way to repair the rotted wood. They asked for pictures and I sent them a few. Here's their response:

In picture #01 I believe that the knee wall is one solid piece that continues down through that shelf into the upper berth back area. In order to achieve the structural integrity you really need to remove that entire piece and replace it with new. The hull sides should be ground to bare glass, and then glass in a new knee wall the entire length. You should use a VE (vinyl-ester) Resin to get a good secondary bond.

I was thinking cutting away the rotted wood and inserting a new piece with dowels or biscuits then tabbing that together by slotting the existing wood and the new wood and "sewing it" with glass tape and resin. Imagine the work involved in having to replace the entire piece? :eek: No thanks!
 
#25 ·
Hi tfliveright,

JulieMor hasn't been around here for 6 plus years. For josrulz who mentioned Garhauer Marine it has been about that long as well... :cry: Odds are slim of either of them seeing your question. :)

> We had Garhauer Marine make us new chainplates, since the price they offered​
> was excellent as was the workmanship.​

However, I believe the Garhauer Marine they referred to is in California. Machinists buddies from 50 years ago, GARgiulo and FelgenHAUER started the company in San Bernardina and are still out that way east of Los Angeles:

Garhauer Marine Hardware​
1082 West 9th St.​
Upland, CA 91786​
+1 (909) 985-9993​

Good luck on your closing!

~~ Red
 
#26 ·
Hi tfliveright,

JulieMor hasn't been around here for 6 plus years. For josrulz who mentioned Garhauer Marine it has been about that long as well... :cry: Odds are slim of either of them seeing your question. :)

> We had Garhauer Marine make us new chainplates, since the price they offered​
> was excellent as was the workmanship.​

However, I believe the Garhauer Marine they referred to is in California. Machinists buddies from 50 years ago, GARgiulo and FelgenHAUER started the company in San Bernardina and are still out that way east of Los Angeles:

Garhauer Marine Hardware​
1082 West 9th St.​
Upland, CA 91786​
+1 (909) 985-9993​

Good luck on your closing!

~~ Red
Thanks Red. Do you have a S-34 MKI and, if so, would you share your experience with the chain plate concerns I have raised?
 
#27 ·
See my response here as well as Main Sails. The chainplate replacement is not difficult. (DIY)

it's the potential underlying problems that need to be closely inspected before buying. I owned a 34 mk1 for 17 years, and over time replaced all but one of the bulkheads. However, the chainplates themselves were fine. I removed them, cleaned and polished them and they showed no signs of deterioration. Boat is on the way to the Bahama's as I type this.

I would sound out and inspect all the bulkheads, and sound out the deck core around the chainplate penetrations. If all that checks out, the chainplates can be replaced one by one at your leisure if even necessary.

I would also take a close look at the mast step area and check under the cabin sole, for any rot. Check all the limber holes in the stringers.

Surveyors sometimes write stuff up, that "should be done" as opposed to " must" After sanding all the teak on my boat before selling it, the surveyor wrote up that the Teak needed to be refinished. Wow. Brilliant !
 
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