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  #21  
Old 02-01-2014
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Re: Hard Chines

The boat reviewed was the Jeanneau Sun Odessey 349. But I have very little faith in the accuracy of sailing reports in magazines. They can hardly come down hard on boats that they advertise. I take them all with a grain of salt. US mags are the very worse.

I've raced pretty much all my life. I know what it takes to drive a boat to weather. If someone tells me to restrict the heel angle upwind to less thean 15 degrees I would get very suspicious. You cannot get the most of a boat driving to weather with heel angle restricted to 15 degrees. That would be nice if popssible but it very seldom is possible.

If you are talking about mom and pop loafing along and taking it easy I understand. If you are telling me that's how you get the most performance out of a boat I don't understand. Of course if you can pile fifteen 200 lb. crew members on the rail you might have something.

I like the Pogo's but I'm pretty sure they do not fit my description of a "mom and pop" boat. I'm thinking more like the Sun Odessey, Dufour 410 or the Bavaria Cruiser 51. That was the group I reviewed.
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  #22  
Old 02-01-2014
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Re: Hard Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
The boat reviewed was the Jeanneau Sun Odessey 349. But I have very little faith in the accuracy of sailing reports in magazines. They can hardly come down hard on boats that they advertise. I take them all with a grain of salt. US mags are the very worse.

... I'm thinking more like the Sun Odessey, Dufour 410 or the Bavaria Cruiser 51. That was the group I reviewed.
I agree that you have to take reviews with a grain of salt and also that American reviews are worse and regarding European magazines not all are the same but there are some with testers that have been doing that for many years and have tested hundreds of boats. I agree that they avoid to say negative things about the boats. with some time you get the hang of understanding what they are saying and what they don'y say is as important as what they say. They avoid to say bad things but they don't avoid to say good things when there are good things to be said.

I still did not understood what was the boat you were referring regarding rounding up at 15º of heel. I don't remember having read nothing about it and I am interested.

Regarding the 349 I don't know of any test sail or review yet. Not even the French had tested the boat. Anyway the 349 has chines but not the type of hull of the Sense or Oceanis series. The boat is designed to sail with more heel, it has a more sportive hull, less beamy and with two rudders. I doubt the boat has a tendency to round up and certainly not a 15º unless Marc Lombard has designed a bad boat and I even doubt that more.

The 349, from the three it is the narrower and the more sportive. The Bavaria has no chines and has a more traditional hull, less beamier then the 410. From the three the 410 is the one with a hull that has more to do with open boats but a hull more sportive than the ones of the Sense or Oceanis, one that is designed to sail with a bit more heel.

Regarding the 410 I read in a French boat test that the boat did not sail as well as they expected in light wind and that does not surprise me with that big transom. The Dufours and the Jeanneau are traditionally more sportive boats than the Bavaria or the Beneteau cruising series: The Sense and the Oceanis.

The Oceanis series are a bit faster than the Sense series (for the same size), being the Sense an heavier boat but the type of hulls are not very different.

Regarding having a decent performance upwind without less heel angle than 15º that is possible. It is possible in a cat with foils and it is possible with a beamy well designed hull like the one of a Sense, if for decent performance we are talking about 45º to the true wind. That's not bad for a cruising boat taking into consideration the huge interior space the comfort of sailing with little heel and the good to very good performance reaching and downwind.

Of course not the type of boat I would like for myself but a boat that makes sense for most cruisers. Most when going directly upwind motor instead of sailing anyway. The worse performance of those boats will be close upwind with big waves and a nasty sea but again most that will use it will not sail on those conditions. Also not very good in very light winds but again the typical cruiser will just motor in light wind. The ones that have pleasure sailing in less than 8k winds are not many among the typical cruisers. At 8k winds and on the flat waters that go with it these boats go already well upwind at a decent speed.

Here you have a good comparative test between the Sense line and Oceanis line by Toby Hodges. It is a good one and they also published the Polar speed of the Oceanis 45 that helps to have an idea of the boat performance:

http://www.ancasta.com/Webfiles/Medi...ld-2012(1).pdf
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Last edited by PCP; 02-01-2014 at 09:53 PM.
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  #23  
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Re: Hard Chines

Bob, I think I found out about what you are talking about when you mentioned a British magazine and a boat that rounded up when heeled over 15º.

It is the test of the Dufour 410 by Sailing Today. It seems to me that they are not used to sail this type of boats and that indicates that they are not very experienced as testers plus some of their comments are plain ridiculous:

"The 410 is a good boat with a fast hull and the space of a 1990’s 50-footer. But there’s just a risk her extreme wedge shape, not dissimilar to that of a Vendée Globe entrant, might just be starting to compromise her role as a quick but secure family cruising yacht."

Of course, that can also be said regarding the Sense or the Oceanis, both whith this type of hull that they seem to worry about being not fit for a "secure family yacht" but then they finish saying: "sailed within her limits, she’s an excellent boat for offshore cruising in comfort" and as any boat has to be sailed within its limits that's a pretty contradictory statment and the contradiction goes on with them given 3 stars over five to a boat that is an "excellent boat for offshore cruising in comfort".

Regarding testers and boat tests the credibility has to do with knowing the tester from many previous test or if not the case if they seem to know what they are talking about and these ones clearly don't:

Regarding the boat to be prone to round up and regarding sailing in general they say:

... (16 knots, gusting 22 knots) ...
Being pretty much slack water our SOG would have proved fairly close to our speed through the water, which, close-hauled was a shade over 8 knots, increasing to 8.8 knots on a close reach.


Really? with 16K over 8k close hauled on a fat 40ft family cruiser? and 8.8K beam reaching....That is a very good performance for a top performance cruiser, almost an impossible one and out of this word for this type of boat, absolutely extraordinary....but wait, they only give 3 points out of 5 in sailing ability on the test score


A couple of times we crept over the 9 knot mark on a beam reach, but both times a sudden 20 knot gust hit us and demonstrated that, if you heel her beyond the chine, her wide stern breaks away and forces her to round up pretty quickly. I’m sure if we’d been able to get to the mainsheet in time we would have kept her on track, though, and when the wind got up further things were considerably better with the mainsheet traveller dropped down to leeward.


Going over 9K on a beamy fat 40ft gusting 20K without an hand on the mainsheet or traveler and they wonder that the boat round up?

Over 9k on a beam reach with 16K is again an incredible performance for this type of boat and pushing the boat that way is sailing it not in a cruising mode but on a race mode and that implies with 16k wind gusting 22, to have a hand on the main sheet and the traveler to de-power the boat on gusts.

"Clearly, she’s a boat that prefers to be sailed reasonably conservatively, which, in all honesty, most cruising folk probably would. Had I been sailing with my family, I’d have put a reef in the main as the true wind reached 15 knots." Right. One wonders if they were testing a racing boat (sailing it like cruisers) or if they are testing a family cruising boat.


"Off the wind she tracked well enough to goosewing for a mile or so, making 7 knots under standard white sails only. A decent gennaker or chute would push this to at least 9 knots, and I’m sure it wouldn’t take much more to get her on the plane.
Right, an heavy fat cruiser on the planing with not much more than 16K

Maybe that is because I am quite used to read boat reviews that I can easily find that these guys, that call themselves testers, really don't know what they are talking about and their experience with different types of boats, including the ones with hulls similar to the Dufour 410 is very small.

Dufour 410: Review and test | Sailing Today

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-01-2014 at 11:21 PM.
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  #24  
Old 02-02-2014
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Re: Hard Chines

I think you have mistaken the threads and have posted this on the interesting boat thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
The information is all in my last post. Read slowly.

The boat review was the Sun Odessey349. Don't recall the publication but it was English. I think they generally do the best and most honest job. But I don't speak French, Spanish or Italian. I do quite well with Mandarin though.

Sun Odessey 349 was the bopat reviewed.

The Bavaria is ther Farr desin and I said one boat has no chiones and that boat is the Farr design.

The Farr designed Bavaria has no chines.

Clear?
No, it is not clear. I don't think that any British magazine tested (yet) the Jeanneau Odyssey 349. I think you are referring to the test of the Dufour 410 by Sailing today (see the above post). You say that you saw it on line so it should be easy to post a link. Regarding that test being an "honest" job see the post above.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Hard Chines

Paulo:
Thanks, you are correct. It was a the review of the Dufour I wasa referring to. It was some time ago and I had forgotten. I usually would not read a sailing review because as I said I don't trust them, but in this case the information I received from Dufour did not included the designer's name so I was hunting around on the internet.

Yes, that is a terrible review full of misinformation.
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Re: Hard Chines

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Thanks, you are correct. It was a the review of the Dufour I wasa referring to. It was some time ago and I had forgotten. I usually would not read a sailing review because as I said I don't trust them, but in this case the information I received from Dufour did not included the designer's name so I was hunting around on the internet.

Yes, that is a terrible review full of misinformation.
Tanks Bob. You have strong but honest opinions. That is quite rare on internet forums. I try to do the same.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Hard Chines

"You have strong but honest opinions."
Thanks Paulo. I try not to be rigid. I like to think I am always ready to learn new things.
I get annoyed when bad or just plain wrong information is passed off as fact.
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Old 02-03-2014
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Re: Hard Chines

Bob, some more food for thought:

This discussion led me to look at the subject with more attention. Regarding chines I had already seeing designers defending them in what regards absolute gains in speed but I like pragmatism and reality over theory and it is so simple as this: If chines represented an effective gain in speed, in what regards top racing and top racing designers, everyone would be using them. Of course as it is a relatively new thing and the gains are small it would take time to spread but it will spread inevitably to all, otherwise even small that difference would make the boats less competitive.

So, I had a look at top racing boats and new designs and a separation appears very clearly: Practically all solo boats, boats that are to be sailed with short crews or offshore over huge distances, extensively even with a crew, have them.

Many, maybe even most, of the top regatta crewed boats don't have them even if recent designs. For instance the TP 52 don't have them or many of Ker Reischel and Pugh or Mills very recent designs.

This leads me to consider very probable that the theory regarding gains in speed is not an absolute one and that the superior control of the boat in what regards easiness of sailing is much more at stake here.

On a solo boat or in a boat sailed day and night in harsh conditions a more easy to sail boat can translate in a faster boat while on a regatta with a full crew it is possible to have the concentration and skill to dispense that easiness in what regards top performance meaning that even if it is much more dificult to sail (but slightly faster) a top sailor's crew will be able to go faster.

Looking at the subject this way it is clear why it makes sense to use chines on cruising boats, since it as not to do with absolute speed but mostly with a better and easier boat control. It is not by accident that the improvements in rigging and design coming from open solo racers are the ones that have a more direct and faster utilization on cruising boats. Like on solo racers on cruising boats easiness is a very important characteristic in what regards sailing.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Hard Chines

Paulo:
I agree with some of the things you say, as usual.

I won't generalize. If chines are to be effective for performance they need to be mated to a hull that is capable of high performance.

If chines are put on Mom and Pop boats for handling benefits as you say, I can understand that. I'm not sure I agree but I understand. Given the huge amount of wetted surface the chine shape usually adds it certainly will cost a lot of performance for a small handling gain. If in fact there is a handling advantage.

As for the solo race boats. Here it is all about speed. The chines make the boat more stable off the wind and that results in more speed. If a byproduct of this is easier handling as you say, and I agree with you here, then it is a byproduct and not the intention of the chine. The broad stern with flat butts is the classic shape for a boat that is stable when pushed hard off the wind.

When a design feature becomes "fashionable", i.e. the spoiler on the Toyota, it's easy to find reasons why it make sense and is a worthwhile feature. None the less the choice of this feature is first driven by fashion. Of course the spoiler on the Toyota works. To a degree it works. Does it make the Toyota a better car? No. It's still a Toyota. It's just heavier now.

Maybe some day in the future we'll look back and say, "Remember when we put chines on boats?" I've sailed under CCA, PHRF and IOR. I have seen a lot of features we thought made sense come and go. They seem right at the time.

I know in my design work I will not be adding chines to my moderate cruising boat designs any time soon. Maybe someday.

But I have nothing against chines. I have sailed many chine boats and I will use them in my design work where I think they can be beneficial.


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Re: Hard Chines

Bob - let's see if I got this right. For a light boat with favorable D/L chines and wide stern with twin rudders may make good sense. For a cruiser ( your mom and pop boat) carrying significant weight in stores and fluids not so much. With chines one does get extra space but at a possible penalty of possible increased wetted surface in light air with decreased performance but decreased wetted surface and possibly a smoother run once boat is at its ideal degree of heel. With decreased rocker ride might be effected but downwind speed improved. Whereas traditional boats were very concerned about diagonals and non turbulent runs now concern remains about turbulence but parasitic drag and decreased wetted surface are modified by decreased water plane on heel produced by chined design.
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