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  #91  
Old 04-10-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

I know the Outbounds reasonably well. I am a big fan of the late Carl Schumacher's work. And while I only knew him only peripherally, I was devasted at his loss, especially coming so close in time with Mark Soverel's passing, and all three of us being the same age. He was a very talented designer.

To mix metaphors and references, I once read a description of Nat Herreshoff that said something like Nat could visualize the way that every molecule of water moved past a hull. There was also a terribly un-PC quote that described some peice of music some by an early 1960's cross-over soul-singer as having a beat that even a white guy could find.

Carl could draw a hull that even a dilettante yacht design groupie like me could visualize every molecule of water moving past its hull. I have always liked his Express 37 and loved his Lightwave 395.

As much as I like the Outbounds, and I understand that all boats are a compromise, they were somewhat tamed from what I might have wanted to see from Carl. I really like the new deck that Bob drew for the boat.

It adds a lot to the boat. I think its a shame that they did not develop a fractional rig for the boat when they were updating the deck plan. This would be such an easier boat to handle with a fractional rig.

This is one of those boats that I have a love hate emotion towards. At 28,000 lbs, it was my understanding that they were nearly 6,000 heavier than originally intended.

At least one of the boats that showed up in Annapolis got a very strange custom interior layout that never made any sense to me, being neither an offshore friendly layout, or a good live aboard, or comfortable for coastal cruising either.

Outbound also made some questionable cost-cutting decisions for a serious cruising boat, the worst offense being going with an encapsulated keel which maybe fine for coastal cruising near boatyards, but which has no place on a long range cruiser. Compounding that dubious move, I cannot imagine a good technical solution to adding a bulb to an encasulated keel. Combined these would be a deal killer if I was in that price bracket and going cruising to places where there wasn't a boat yard around every corner.

But my gripes with the Outbounds are mostly details reflecting my own tastes and preferences. They are certainly nice boats and would make a lovely way to go voyaging.

Respectfully,

Jeff
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  #92  
Old 04-10-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

"Outbound also made some questionable cost-cutting decisions for a serious cruising boat, the worst offense being going with an encapsulated keel which maybe fine for coastal cruising near boatyards, but which has no place on a long range cruiser. Compounding that dubious move, I cannot imagine a good technical solution to adding a bulb to an encasulated keel. Combined these would be a deal killer if I was in that price bracket and going cruising to places where there wasn't a boat yard around every corner. "

This whole paragraph I take issue with. Providing that the boat has not had a serious grounding and been badly repaired, what maintenance issues am I likely to encounter with my encapsulated keel that would require staying close to boatyards? Am I likely to suffer a grounding within the deep ocean?

I know of instances where keel bolts have failed, but of none where encapsulated keels on sound boats have spontaneously fallen off.

If you read "Heavy Weather Sailing" and it's excellent analysis of the features in sailboats that have performed well in storms, they found little relationship between storm survival and keel type.
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Old 04-10-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Don't know Jeff. They put encapsulated keels on Cherubini boats and they seem to hold up pretty well. Think they do the same on the Shannon centerboarders as well and they seem to have been everywhere. Looking at boats at ~$1m a pop with those 2 brands so don't think those folks would do that just to save a few bucks. Went through the scantlings in some detail on my future home. The bulb is really three pieces - the bottom of the keel in the middle filled with lead (no iron) -then two halves of lead both bolted through the bottom of the keel and glassed over and faired into the main body of the keel. The key area where it's joined to the canoe body is overbuilt and further supported by the grid system of stringers. Fairly labor intensive and not cheap. Think if a hard grounding caused hull failure with this construction a similar grounding would punch a bolted keel through the canoe body as well. ( Go to a yard and look just aft of bolted fins that done some years ago. Think they improved dramatically but unfortunately groundings can injury any vessel. If that's a concern get a Waterline). In contact with other owners who have suffered groundings (it will happen to ALL of us at some point) and they report no issues.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Jeff- ?do you remember the name or hull # or date you saw the boat in Annapolis? You're right some of the interiors are quite different and a few of the 50 built have been used mainly coastal will rare long transits. However, most have voyaged (usually with two). I went with an interior close to #47 with just a few mods to suit a 6" and 4'10" crew. Personally as said above by Mark more likely to get hull damage at the hard edges then offshore. So I haven't seen any without the aft double quarter berth which seems safe and snug offshore. The galley is a U and secure. One of the things on some of the European boats that held me back was their galleys. Like to lean on something when pouring boiling water even with the cup in the sink. Liked the new Morris a lot but too much money. After 6/2 send me a PM. Maybe we can go for sail.
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Old 04-10-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wolf:
Good eye. The Cecil Lange Cape George Cutter has a modified freeboard from the original Atkin design. Cecil raised the sheer, destroyed the beautiful original sheer spring and called it good. I have zero respect for Cecil. The original design from Atkin as I recall was TALLY HO MAJOR. I could be wrong. I lent those bbooks and pof course I never got them back. Bastard! You can see the design as Atkin intended if you can fuind pics of Doug Fryer's old boat AFRCAN STAR. This is the boat I used as an inspiration for Doug's next boat NIGHT RUNNER.
Bob, I think one of us is channeling the other these days. I just finished the chapter on Night Runner in your book, complete with the commentary on Lange phucking with your lines.

Why did Fryer let him get away with it?
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Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

I agree Jeff on the SA/D aspect of the added weight. But and this is a big but, I still think the lighter boat will be the better performer. One number doesn't tell the entire story. Remember the lighter boat in all probablity would have started with a much higher SA/D to begin with. Your typcal D/L 250 cruiser would probably have a SA/D around 17.00before loading. While the lighter boat most probably would have SA/D around 20.00 and maybe even higher before loading. Add the extra weight and the light boat in almost all cases would still have a higher SA/D or at the least the same SA/D as the heavier boat.

Let's do the math:
A 24,000 lb. boat with 850 sq. ft. of sail area (Valiant 40 specs) will have a SA/D of 16.34 prior to loading.
Load on 2,700 lbs. of gear and the SA/D drops to 15.22

A 14,000 lb. modern boat with 800 sq. ft. of SA will have a SA/D of 22.00 prior to loading.
Add the 2,700 lbs. of gear and the SA/D drops to 19.59.

Even if I cut the rig down on the light boat to 700 sq. ft the loaded SA/D is still 17.1.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

John:
Doug was truly in love with the project and Doug is a very optimistic kind of guy. Cecil is a bit of a bully. Cecil made several unfortunate changes to NR as I designed it. Two of them caused structural problems. One change was done on the QT to save Cecil money. This came out later. The other major change Cecil sold to Doug with the idea that it would save Doug money. Doug will tell you this. The thing that saved the NR project was that most of the work was done by Cecil's son Bob and he is a very good builder.
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Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

There is an analogy between yacht hull design and automotive body design. New cars give better numbers in the computer model at cost of beauty and grace....though in application (not what it is capable of and/or size of engine/amount of sail area it takes to go the same speed) the difference is negligible.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Wolf:
Not sure I follow you.

I certainly agree that the XKE of old is a far prettier car than todays typical suppository shaped vehicle. But I drive a Subaru Outback so I should probably shut up about cars.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wolf:
Not sure I follow you.

I certainly agree that the XKE of old is a far prettier car than todays typical suppository shaped vehicle. But I drive a Subaru Outback so I should probably shut up about cars.
I was talking about the esthetics of hull/body design.
From a functionality point of view of the wide range of vehicles I have owned, the best vehicle I ever owned was '85 VW Vanagon (with a hopped up engine and suspension), though it was comfortable, handled and performed great and did everything I wanted of it plus some, it had the grace of a shoe box.
In everything I personally have an appreciation for an effective combination of form and function. Giving up alot of beauty and grace to be able to do something a little faster at much more cost just doesn't sit well for me...but that is my own personal preference.
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