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  #101  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Wolf:
I sold my big Mercedes SEL last year. I loved that huge car with its 6 litre engine. But when gas went up it begin to sit more and when Spike died I didn't have the inclination or desire to drive it anymore. A fancy car was never going to make me happy again. But, truth is, for an everyday car my Outback is a better car. For my go to car I would always choose performance first. I don't think the two of us will ever bridge that divide.

BTW, thanks for posting those Atkin lines. They bring back a lot of memories from my childhood. I studied all those designs. I had a big stack of the IDEAL books put out by MOTORBOATING and SAILING. Sadly I now have none, not one. I must learn some day to never lend my books.
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  #102  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

If you go to Pat Atkin's page it says the Captain Cicero was originally published by MotorBoating magazine in 1945....but I found out it was originally commissioned in 1936, but the man that commissioned it chose not to build so the plan were only allowed to be published if the name were changed from the original name Kathrine S. (after the wife of the man who commissioned it). As this boat was a commission it explains why there are a few subtle differences from the standard "Atkin Boat"
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  #103  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

This question is not to make a point but genuinely for information...

I have read that, in ocean races that have been hit by unexpected storms over the last number of decades, the percentage of boats that survive / finish has been steadily dropping... this is offered as evidence that older higher displacement designs have better performance in bad weather (performance being a complicated matter, including speed, motion, crew comfort, etc.)

Can you comment?
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  #104  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
This question is not to make a point but genuinely for information...

I have read that, in ocean races that have been hit by unexpected storms over the last number of decades, the percentage of boats that survive / finish has been steadily dropping... this is offered as evidence that older higher displacement designs have better performance in bad weather (performance being a complicated matter, including speed, motion, crew comfort, etc.)

Can you comment?
It could be that and/or it could be the way racing boats are equipped, lighter weight and/or more complicated equipment. Some people will finish a race no matter what...some people will only finish a race if they can make a good showing and if enough stuff goes wrong it isn't worth the trouble.
In the article about the recent fatal accident in SF they also mentioned how many other boats suffered equipment failures, in weather I would have just considered a fun time.
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  #105  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Wolf, the fact that you cite a Vanagon as the best car you ever owned REALLY REALLY undermines your credibility.

The ONLY thing that old cars have over new is style - they are hugely inferior in every other way.

The first car I ever bought was a Series I 4.2 E-Type - some of my best memories but it was a piece of shite. In the early 70's it cost me $1.04 a MILE to own.

My wife's current car is a blown XJR and it is, bar none, the most wonderful car we have ever driven. As you can imagine, I've had lots of nice cars in the intervening 40 years so I have lots of comparisons.

For pure stone axe reliability, nothing tops the Gen II Trans Am I had though - cost me next to nothing to drive for 17 years and an unknown number of trips around the clock.

As for the new gen racing boats - they are simply built a lot closer to the edge - well beyond it for offshore work IMHO.
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  #106  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
This question is not to make a point but genuinely for information...

I have read that, in ocean races that have been hit by unexpected storms over the last number of decades, the percentage of boats that survive / finish has been steadily dropping... this is offered as evidence that older higher displacement designs have better performance in bad weather (performance being a complicated matter, including speed, motion, crew comfort, etc.)

Can you comment?
Could be that in the old days, people had no choice but to finish.

Could also be that modern ocean racers are puching the envelope a bit more than in the old days.

A Ferrari F1 probably breaks down more often than a horse and a cart ;-)
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  #107  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Wolf, the fact that you cite a Vanagon as the best car you ever owned REALLY REALLY undermines your credibility.

The ONLY thing that old cars have over new is style - they are hugely inferior in every other way.

The first car I ever bought was a Series I 4.2 E-Type - some of my best memories but it was a piece of shite. In the early 70's it cost me $1.04 a MILE to own.

My wife's current car is a blown XJR and it is, bar none, the most wonderful car we have ever driven. As you can imagine, I've had lots of nice cars in the intervening 40 years so I have lots of comparisons.

For pure stone axe reliability, nothing tops the Gen II Trans Am I had though - cost me next to nothing to drive for 17 years and an unknown number of trips around the clock.

As for the new gen racing boats - they are simply built a lot closer to the edge - well beyond it for offshore work IMHO.
I think I said from a functionality point of view. I was a welder and could go to the scrap yard and through 1500lbs of steel in the back and could also fit a queen size mattress (I spent a night once with two people a huskie, an 85lb malamute and a165lb malamute also), drive a 1000miles get out and I wasn't tired. As far as reliability it was completely different from the old air cooled VWs
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  #108  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I was talking about the esthetics of hull/body design.
From a functionality point of view of the wide range of vehicles I have owned, the best vehicle I ever owned was '85 VW Vanagon (with a hopped up engine and suspension), though it was comfortable, handled and performed great and did everything I wanted of it plus some, it had the grace of a shoe box.
In everything I personally have an appreciation for an effective combination of form and function. Giving up alot of beauty and grace to be able to do something a little faster at much more cost just doesn't sit well for me...but that is my own personal preference.
Zee,

I will agree with you on most of it, sort of liking classical painting over modern art. But if you own a modern house the form and function of a Picaso on the wall over a Goya makes more sense to me.

So with boats it is much the same for us. As we plan for the atolls of the Carolines and jungle rivers in Borneo and PNG, form and function have changed how we look at those two subjects. The grace in the beautiful lines of our last two boats Rhodes Chesapeke and the Mason 44 have given way in both form and function. The form of the Boreal is no longer the grace of a female nature but in its physical strength, far more masculine. That's where we see our beauty now. The function is where we can go that we could not go in the other boats and hopefully shorter passages because we will be faster in the same size boat as the Mason 44.

As I look at the pictures and comments here and interesting sailboats thread of the modern designs I am learning the beauty of their form and function. That is something I could not have done easily just a few years ago. Grace can be everything in beauty or little at all. And thanks to the comments by Paulo, Jeff, Bob and many others I feel like I have gone back to art school and had some great teachers explain the modern concept of form and function.

We love all the great designs in many sailing vessels as well the great paintings the world over. I can even understand the Velvet Elvis paintings sort of like the poorer built mass produced sailboats, we have one hanging in our chicken coup and the chickens love it.

Cheers
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  #109  
Old 04-11-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
...
As for the new gen racing boats - they are simply built a lot closer to the edge - well beyond it for offshore work IMHO.
There are many types of racing boats. Solo offshore racing boats are not near the edge. How can they be if they have to be sailed on autopilot at speed while the only sailor sleeps?

On the last Transat on 34ft racing solo boats they got two big storms. I heard at the end the guy that finished in third saying that he had been lucky because he had taken another route and only got 40K winds while the other guys got 60. They keep on racing, nobody changed course for getting a better angle and all boats make it trough, except two that had to retire with too much damage on the sails to keep racing. you mean these boats are not suited for offshore work?

As I said, lots of different race boats out there

Regards

Paulo
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  #110  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
There are many types of racing boats. Solo offshore racing boats are not near the edge. How can they be if they have to be sailed on autopilot at speed while the only sailor sleeps?

On the last Transat on 34ft racing solo boats they got two big storms. I heard at the end the guy that finished in third saying that he had been lucky because he had taken another route and only got 40K winds while the other guys got 60. They keep on racing, nobody changed course for getting a better angle and all boats make it trough, except two that had to retire with too much damage on the sails to keep racing. you mean these boats are not suited for offshore work?

As I said, lots of different race boats out there

Regards

Paulo
How many rigs have come down, keels fallen off, sailors been rescued and sailors disappeared in the Vendee since its inception?

In the first Whitbread, Sayula, a stock Swan 65 was rolled or pitchpoled, came up with rig intact and continued on to win. The sailors had proper hot meals with wine IIRC during the race and didn't have to wear crash helmets.

THAT is "suitable for offshore" IMHO.
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