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  #131  
Old 04-12-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
A Toyota MR2 with a hardtop?

I had a 2004 Mazda Miata for a fun sportscar for 4 years. I sold it after my wife and I took a vacation to the beach and we couldn't even bring the usual load of beach stuff we need.

I "raced" the car in SCCA Solo II/Autocross (parking lot cone races) for a few years and the Miatas were dominant in C Stock (my class) and E Stock (the older version) and some of the modified classes, but there was one Toyota MR2 in Va. Beach that cleaned up C Stock regularly until it was totalled running into a timing trailer. Those are fun cars to drive. Just like boats - you don't need fast and expensive to enjoy driving or sailing.
The second version of Mister Two was a great car - I never understood why it didn't sell better. It was like getting a Ferrari Dino for $0.10 on the $.

All it needed to perfect it was bigger wheels - those stock wheels looked like the came from a skateboard.
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  #132  
Old 04-12-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

My step son has the second gen Mister Two. That is one surprisingly really nice car. I never understood why it did not sell better either. The problem now is that Toyota is no longer supporting Gen 2 making some of the ideosyncratic parts hard to get, (like the power steering pump which is electric and mounted in the front trunk!)

The small wheels are a problem too since almost no one makes tires the size of the fronts.

But a real cheap thrill to drive....

Jeff
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  #133  
Old 04-12-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

WHOOOAAAAA.... talk about thread drift!!
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  #134  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

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WHOOOAAAAA.... talk about thread drift!!
I guess the point here regarding comfort and voyage has something to do with comfort and voyage in a boat. Some voyage on a fast motorcycle (I had done that on a Triumph 900, many thousands of kms for each voyage and with my wife) some in a sports car that have little more space for luggage, some only can voyage carrying big bags and a lot of luggage. They need an heavy car and they also want a softer suspension to be more comfortable. Some just don't voyage by car (too uncomfortable) and take the airplane.

Regarding voyaging with a sailing boat there are a parallel for every case. The guys that take the airplane are the guys that fly to the cruising grounds and charter boats there

The guys that voyage in fast boats carrying very small luggage are the same kind of guys that voyage in fast motorcycles or sport cars and they do it for the same reason, the pleasure of the ride that is for them an indispensable complement to the pleasure of voyaging.

The guys that like soft suspensions a sedate ride and like to travel comfortably with all the stuff that gives them pleasure are the guys that like heavy slow but comfortable boats. They are not in it for the ride but for the voyage in itself and they want to do it with all comfort they can have.

Saying to a guy that likes and wants to enjoy fast sailing while he voyages with a minimum charge that his boat is not a proper boat to do it because it has not the "needed" charge capacity it is like saying to someone that travels on a fast motorcycle or on a small sports car that is vehicle has not the "needed" charge capacity to do that the "right way". That is specially ridiculous when that is said by someone that only dreams about voyaging to someone that effectively voyage extensively on the said vehicle by his choice and pleasure.

That's the point I was trying to make

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-12-2013 at 09:42 PM.
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  #135  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Well said, P!
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  #136  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Moving from land back to sea. Have a goldwng- use it going state to state, a KTM990- used it on dirt and double track, a Z4- use it on pleasant days with the Admiral. And the daily ride is an F150 lariet 4by. To ask anyone of these vehicles to do what the others are capable of is obviously ridiculous. To say one is better than the other is equally foolhardy. Why do we not translate that obvious fact to sailboats. Some of the amazing things in land vehicles were worked out in bikes first. Some just don't translate to cars and most don't make any difference to my truck.

P.S.- They all are in the process of disappearing as we reverse evolution and return to the sea. ( KTM went first now the Z4 is on the block). Guess I won't have the most toys but will have big smile anyway. Miss orange.
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Last edited by outbound; 04-12-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Moving from land back to sea. Have a goldwng- use it going state to state, a KTM990- used it on dirt and double track, a Z4- use it on pleasant days with the Admiral. And the daily ride is an F150 lariet 4by. To ask anyone of these vehicles to do what the others are capable of is obviously ridiculous. To say one is better than the other is equally foolhardy. Why do we not translate that obvious fact to sailboats. Some of the amazing things in land vehicles were worked out in bikes first. Some just don't translate to cars and most don't make any difference to my truck.

...
That can be like that for you. I would not have used the 990KTM on the dirt. I would have pick it and I would go voyaging in it, preferably with some dirt desert or ice roads from time to time, but voyaging anyway, that is what that bike was made too: going to far away and wild places.

For ridding on the dirt I had true KTM racing machines, I trained and raced in them for many years, long distance racing. I tried once a friend's Goldwing and I could only think: What a stupid machine, what a cow, how can someone have some pleasure driving this?

As you see tastes are different Maybe it would help explaining that I have no pleasure riding or driving in high ways and that all those tens of thousands of Kms where made in secondary roads and most of the time on mountain roads?

In fact many times while riding the Triumph 900 in far away mountain roads I thought how much more fun would be doing that on my 640 KTM race machine. That one would be a drag on faster roads, but the 990KTM, I would have changed in an heartbeat for the Triumph. Pity that was not available on those days



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-13-2013 at 07:36 AM.
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  #138  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

paulo- we live in different worlds.

Ktm- 80+mph up rt 95. Then hundreds of miles through double track in dirt service roads of forests in Maine up to Canada seeing no people nor vehicles for days. Then accross to Vermont. Down rt 100 scraping pegs leaving sparks. Then over to Bridge of Flowers. Then over to Americade in N.Y. to meet friends. Then rt9. Then home. This is like doing ALL of Europe and for many riders here is an average trip.
Wing- Many of the roads out west are flat straight and boring-saying is "get her done". Use the bike for "Iron Butt" 1000m days. Do Sturgis. Sight seeing day maybe ~500m two up. Need to get back and forth from east Coast. A trip on the wing results in at least one oilchange.Fill the panniers and topbox when doing daily chores ( groceries/hardware store etc.)
Sure a duc or benelli is the mount for a track day. And any 250cc 2 stroke will smoke a duelsport but you need to be less one track n your thinking. All the vehicles I mentioned can easily go over 100mph and some well over. The wing for me far exceeds the performance of my prior HDs and Beemers. It does Iron Butt vey well and is a great day to day. The KTM never goes in a truck bed to get to where I want to ride it. Think boats folks want are similarly not one purpose. Yes on the new boat I will cross oceans ( quite quickly too) but when I get to where I'm going may stay in one place for weeks or even months if it's pleasant and engaging. Also think comfort is safety. Being exhausted, cold, wet, scared, or over your comfort level when you encounter situations beyond your prior experience on a vessel that doesn't cradle you in comfort increases the risk of poor decisions. I'd rather be on a vessel that did many things very well than one that did one thing extremely well.

with regards and respect
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Last edited by outbound; 04-13-2013 at 10:14 AM.
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  #139  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Analogies of motorcycles, race cars, sports cars and pick-up trucks not withstanding, I would like to come back something that is closer to the topic, albeit not precisely on the topic. In these discussions there is often a tendency to use anecdotal evidence to make a case. When we discuss some topic, examples are often cited of some particular case that may only be peripherally related.

I respectfully suggest that looking at the current crop of racing boats to discuss a topic titled "modern hull forms and motion comfort" seems a little counter productive, even if the topic shift went towards adapting these racing hull forms to cruising, or the seaworthiness of the current design trends. Similarly, looking at examples of how encapsulated keeled or bolt on keeled coastal cruisers may not be relevant to a purpose-built, nearly custom distance cruiser.

The reason that I make this broad statement is that when you look at almost any boat, it is built to meet specific criteria. And those criteria, whether it is to cross an ocean faster than the next guy, or sail around a short race course better than the rating says you should, or carry enough supplies to cross the Pacific in comfort, to be quick to get underway and provide an elegant day sail, or provide an inexpensive way to explore comparatively protected coastal waters and provide all the comforts of home when anchored, shape a wide range of range of decisions about the design of the boat; how the hull will be shaped, how it will be appointed, how it will be rigged, and how it will be constructed.

And while there may be reasonable analysis points that come out of comparing boats designed for disparate purposes, such as saying one type is faster or one type needs more overall displacement, it is very hard to bore down and begin to project the impact of design details from one type to another.

To me, a good example of this type of projection is the discussion of the reliability of race boats today vs race boats of yesteryear. I have to say that at the grand prix level, race boats have always been pushed to the limit. Examples of spar failures, structural failures, and short shelf life designs have been with sailing almost from the beginning of yacht racing. Frankly these kinds of failures happened pretty routinely in the days of commercial sail as well.

I suggest that whether designing that close to the edge is proper, is a philosophical question that is not germane to my point, or this thread, and frankly could be debated ad-infinitum with neither side presenting a definitively compelling case.

But where some of this goes off the rails, is in trying to interpolate the ultimate direction of mainstream yacht design from experimental elements of racing technology. Yacht design history if full of examples of controversial measures that became mainstream after they were declared impossibly bad ideas, and other ideas which were lauded as the future of yacht design, only to end up in the dustbin of history.

Its easy to forget how controversial external ballast was when it was fist introduced. Traditionalist opponents were sure that the motion of yachts with external ballast would roll the rig right out of the boat. Inboard rudders were treated with similar disdain. Bermuda rigs were decried. Keel centerboard boats were declared as unsafe for offshore use and seen as being a high risk design done only for speed. Fin keels, while not fully agreed to be all even today, were seen as dangerous experiments only appropriate for use by daredevils. Roller reefing booms were cited as the 'next best thing'. Mundane things like winches for offshore use were debated since the internal parts could fail, but tackles could always be rerigged.The list goes on.

But at the heart of it, the jury of real life interceded and some of these items became mainstream, while others like roller reefing booms of the 1950-60's thankfully disappeared.

While racing craft are trying all kinds of interesting experiments, I suggest that it is premature to try to declare any of them as 'the winner'. In my life, I remember sailing on a new Tartan 41 (1970's IOR boat), with miter-cut dacron genoas, and radical head chutes, and the crew were so impressed with the boat, that members of the crew concluded that boat designs had advanced as far as they ever would.

I remember seeing moveable water ballast as the next trend that would become the norm for cruising boats. (My boat was set up so that the drinking water could be shifted side to side on each tack for longer passages.)

So when I look at the current crop of extremely beamy, articulated keel, carbon fiber boats, I see new ideas being tried. I see them working positively in many ways. I can see why someone might build and own a boat that was built that way. But at this point, I do not conclude that this trend in yacht design portends an ultimate direction that more mainstream design will choose to follow, evolve from, or ultimately ignore.

But lastly, I do not mean these comments to be seen as a criticism of any particular point of view, or individual, or group of denizens of this discussion. In fact, I mean them in large part as a kind of Mea Culpa, since I see myself as guilty of perpertrating the sins that this posts decries. But I have been thinking about this for several days, and thought that it probably might help create a back drop for moving the discourse forward.

Maybe that is just me....now back to the regularly schedule program.......

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 04-13-2013 at 10:37 AM.
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  #140  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

I think you are drinking too much coffee Jeff.
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