Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort - Page 15 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree60Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #141  
Old 04-13-2013
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,559
Thanks: 5
Thanked 92 Times in 69 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I think you are drinking too much coffee Jeff.
Mea Culpa on that as well!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #142  
Old 04-13-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

It doesn't take much to make a tremendous difference in performance. If you look at a Westsail 32 from the side it looks very much like my boat with lines that had been continued to a point (adding 2' of extra boat and waterline), also the bottom of the keel runs forward alot further before it starts to angle up (from the waterline up they are incredible similar)....if you look at it from the end it is a different story the Westsail has 2'4" more beam (11' vs 8.75' = a tad more than a 25%increase), the disp of the WS (a fiberglass boat) is 5600lbs more than the design wieght of the Captain Cicero (an solidly built wood boat) 19500lbs vs 13900ls a tad more than a 40% increase. The first time I saw a WS 32 out of the water was next to my boat on the hard...made my boat look downright sexy. All of the ways a Westsnail ois know to perform my boats is the opposite, this includes sailing performance as well as living comfort, the WS is a way more comfortable boat from a living point of view.
The analogy I gave about cars seems to have gotten lost....I was trying to point out that pleasing esthetics have been lost in the name of performance...if you make it look sort of like a no nonsense racing machine, iwith a few tweaks for creature comforts (like removing the wide sidedecks you would need on a racing boat to give more room in the cabin) all at the cost of something that is pleasing to the eye. It is actually suprisingly rare to find a boat that is high performance where it counts and pleasing to the eye where it counts.
BOB: take a close look at the lines of my boat and tell me could a fin keel have been designed in relatively easily.http://atkinboatplans.com/Sail/image...inCicero-3.gif
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #143  
Old 04-13-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
...
So when I look at the current crop of extremely beamy, articulated keel, carbon fiber boats, I see new ideas being tried. I see them working positively in many ways. I can see why someone might build and own a boat that was built that way. But at this point, I do not conclude that this trend in yacht design portends an ultimate direction that more mainstream design will choose to follow, evolve from, or ultimately ignore.
...
Jeff
Nice post

Regarding that particular point fact is that yacht trend is already dominant in what regards influence on mainstream cruising boats. I am not talking about the canting keels but about the hull shape in many aspects, from increased beam, beam brought back, chines and a hull designed to sail with a very limited heel. I am not talking only about marginal cruising boats , like Pogo, Wauquiez or RM but about mass production brands like Benetau, Hanse, Dufour or even in lesser extent Bavaria. They are not the exception but the rule.

Just two of the more recent designs among main stream cruisers: The Dufour Grand Large and the Benetau Sense:






and I am not talking about the performance lines of these builders but about their cruising lines. Curiously, or maybe not, their performance line shows a lesser influence of the hull shapes used on solo racers. That has to do with the bad rating of these boats but also because most performance boats when used for racing are used for crewed racing and then the requirement of having a very easy to sail and comfortable boat (in what regards to heeling) is not the dominant criteria. Speed and rating are as well as maximazing upwind sailing performance, much less important for the average cruiser that just turns the engine to go dead upwind.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 04-13-2013 at 02:46 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #144  
Old 04-13-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Hood River
Posts: 303
Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 2
hannah2 is on a distinguished road
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Paulo,

Can you show some pictures of a bit more up scale modern cruising boats designs, let's say in the 300,000 to 500,000 dollar euro range?

I'm not a Benne fan at all but that Sense with better deck safety features is a better cruising boat than my Mason 44 was for doing the milk run. Maybe not built as well but it is faster, has more room to live on for two or a family of four. Better storage, better for swimming and diving, just a lot of little things that make it a better cruising boat. And it is not ugly at all when looking at the deck layout, the lines are OK. An ugly sailboat or motor boat looks like a clorox bottle more than a boat.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #145  
Old 04-13-2013
wolfenzee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: S/V Waltzing Matilda, Port Ludlow, WA (NW Puget Sound)
Posts: 497
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
wolfenzee is on a distinguished road
Send a message via ICQ to wolfenzee
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Paulo,

Can you show some pictures of a bit more up scale modern cruising boats designs, let's say in the 300,000 to 500,000 dollar euro range?

I'm not a Benne fan at all but that Sense with better deck safety features is a better cruising boat than my Mason 44 was for doing the milk run. Maybe not built as well but it is faster, has more room to live on for two or a family of four. Better storage, better for swimming and diving, just a lot of little things that make it a better cruising boat. And it is not ugly at all when looking at the deck layout, the lines are OK. An ugly sailboat or motor boat looks like a clorox bottle more than a boat.
If you are going to be spending that amount of money on a boat you should not be looking for something "off the rack" but alot more custom than one would normally accept and/or expect. Just the interior alone could be done *exactly* the way you wanted rather than interiors that are designed around the "average sailor" and or what looks best at the boat show. Topsides \equipment used to fit you ....the whole boat could be finished to fit what is best for you personally.
People ask me "did you build your boat" and I respond, "No I left that up to the boat builder, but I finished her to fit my personal likes" (I don't have enough money to hire someone else to do the work for me).

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-13-2013 at 02:13 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #146  
Old 04-13-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,651
Thanks: 31
Thanked 28 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 2
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Hannah2 so glad you've jioned this thread. Between you and Bob very informed and graceful posts are sure to follow. Jeff makes an excellent point. We won't know which current advances will be integrated into the continuing evolution of sailing vessels. I do feel Bob's CURRENT designs remain pleasing to my eye, with interiors that are warm and inviting and believe they give up little or nothing to the boats Paulo is kind enough to post. They will remain timely and aesethically pleasing for decades to come. Bob's rework of Carl's deck is ingenious although I went another way with it. I realize placing aesethetics in to the equation raises another parameter but we build and buy boats to enjoy and spend our lives on. Some how many fast,seaworthy and comfortable designs of the current crop of designs leave me cold and I fear will be the avacado kitchens of the future.
Hannah2's boat is purpose built. Extremely well thought out and beautiful in the form follows function paradigm. It's another way to achieve beauty.

P.s.- Bob you're right. do these posts during breaks from computer work while drinking coffee. My screen time will fall dramatically come May23.
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46

Last edited by outbound; 04-13-2013 at 02:58 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #147  
Old 04-13-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,162
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannah2 View Post
Paulo,

Can you show some pictures of a bit more up scale modern cruising boats designs, let's say in the 300,000 to 500,000 dollar euro range?

...
Not here (I don't want to hi-jack the thread) but I can do it on the Interesting BT. You mean interesting offers regarding main stream cruisers, mass produced boats between 300 000 and 500 000 euros? That is just huge and you will have a big offer. That Benetau Sese 50, that is a good example of the influence of solo open design boats on cruising boats costs only € 263,400 excl. VAT. With extras 60 000 of extras will be on the lower limit that you have set. That is also a very interesting concept in what regards interior (the boat does not have aft cabins) but a huge storage space. Yes that will be a boat comfortable to sail in the trade winds, that is the way most sailors travel. Here a test by a good tester, one that does not like much these kind of boats and prefers more traditional boats:





http://www.yachtingworld.com/video/b...sense-50-video

http://www.yachtingworld.com/video/b...stick-steering

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 04-13-2013 at 03:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #148  
Old 04-13-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Hood River
Posts: 303
Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 2
hannah2 is on a distinguished road
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Outbound, Yes nice to see you here. I'm too damn busy getting ready to go to say much and that is for the better probably. Also in the last couple of weeks I have received a lot of emails from sailors that have signed papers on new Boreals and a few emails from folks going over to the factory to talk about a Boreal, they all want to know what they can expect as the process goes forward. A lot of info for them but fun to talk with others who want to do some serious cruising. Funny most want to stay cold and north or way way south but I think they are younger than me.

Zee Most of the boats being built in Europe in the price range I mentioned are produced in some fairly decent numbers so they are mass produced to me if they make 10 or more of the same boat a year. Most will allow some custom work to be done. I don't think you could find a custom built boat in the 42 foot plus range for under 500,000 Euro. Bob would know more about that.

Paulo, I see your point, in the other thread would be better. But with the talk of form and function and how it fits the modern hull and motion comfort it is good to see that many of these boats are not butt ugly. I think when you step up to that next level over the Sense you really start to see some nice differences in a lot of the production boats.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #149  
Old 04-13-2013
Liveaboard/Cruiser
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Key West
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
endoftheroad is on a distinguished road
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

[quote=wolfenzee;1016103]It doesn't take much to make a tremendous difference in performance. If you look at a Westsail 32 from the side it looks very much like my boat with lines that had been continued to a point (adding 2' of extra boat and waterline), also the bottom of the keel runs forward alot further before it starts to angle up (from the waterline up they are incredible similar)....if you look at it from the end it is a different story the Westsail has 2'4" more beam (11' vs 8.75' = a tad more than a 25%increase), the disp of the WS (a fiberglass boat) is 5600lbs more than the design wieght of the Captain Cicero (an solidly built wood boat) 19500lbs vs 13900ls a tad more than a 40% increase. The first time I saw a WS 32 out of the water was next to my boat on the hard...made my boat look downright sexy. All of the ways a Westsnail ois know to perform my boats is the opposite, this includes sailing performance as well as living comfort, the WS is a way more comfortable boat from a living point of view.
The analogy I gave about cars seems to have gotten lost....I was trying to point out that pleasing esthetics have been lost in the name of performance...if you make it look sort of like a no nonsense racing machine, iwith a few tweaks for creature comforts (like removing the wide sidedecks you would need on a racing boat to give more room in the cabin) all at the cost of something that is pleasing to the eye. It is actually suprisingly rare to find a boat that is high performance where it counts and pleasing to the eye where it counts.
BOB: take a close look at the lines of my boat and tell me could a fin keel have been designed in relatively easily.

Geesh. comparing your boat to a Westsail to notice how sexy your boat is.
That is exactly the same viewpoint that the guy with the Alberg 37 on the hard parked next to your boat is going to say.
When will it ever end.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #150  
Old 04-13-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,567
Thanks: 1
Thanked 72 Times in 68 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Wolfer:
No if you are asking me to imagine your boat with a fin keel I can't see that. Too much,,,,well, too much a lot of stuff.

And, comparing your boat to a Westsail, another Atkin design, there are some differences. The ERIC is more symetrical fore and aft mostly due to it's double ended hull form. But really, the two boats will sail fairly similarly. I think your boat would have the edge, all else being equal and it never is. We have come a long way. A long way.

I loved my MGA. But compared to my Subarau Outback it was an awful car. This doesn't mean still don't long to have the MG back. But I don't pretend it is something it is not. It was a romantic looking terrible car.

You guys will have to play without me for a week. I am going back to North Carolina to visit the Pacific Seacraft yard where they are building a 60' ketch I have designed. This is where the rubber meets the road my friends and all the talk, speculation and theorizing doesn't matter. We have a new boat to build and this new boat will be better than old boats in every possible way.

I'm pretty darn certain of that.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Bob's Blog ....


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by bobperry; 04-13-2013 at 08:21 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seakindly Boats vs.the rest rmf1643 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 14 04-10-2013 03:26 PM
What can you tell from the numbers? brazilnut Boat Review and Purchase Forum 10 07-01-2009 04:09 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:25 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.