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  #41  
Old 04-07-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

You guys make it all sound so hard. I'm not sure 2D solutions to 3D problems are valid.
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  #42  
Old 04-08-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Different hull designs have different applications example: the "entry angle of a racing boat is for one purpose and one purpose only, speed (with no concern for comfort or ease of handling)...while the bow of a cruising boat designed handle comfortably in nasty weather at sea is a totally different thing...for a good reason. So why do you find racing hull designs on cruising boat. The marketing industry does this for two reasons, [1] "if my boat has some of the features of a racing boat it will go faster. [2} People are led to believe that anything of old design is bad and anything new must work better.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Zee:
I think you are painting with a very broad brush.
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  #44  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Zee:
I think you are painting with a very broad brush.
I am trying to, there are so many variables involved: hull design, construction, application, use, personal preferences, etc.....you have to paint with a wide brush otherwise you fall into a very narrow groove that only applies to a few. I was being specific enough to say a modern racing hull design is designed for a specific application that does not result in a hull motion comfort. The hulls designed for boats that do have a comfortable motion are not that different from older designs.
In a thread "mdern hull design and comfort" are you comparing different modern designs or you comparing the motion comfort of modern designs to older designs (people who like the latest greatest put all older designs in the same catagory as being poor performers)

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-08-2013 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Zee:
I agree with you. It's the same problem with have with lots of things these days, i.e. "my way or the highway". It's too easy and convenient to just jump into one camp and buy their total argument, "Old is bad" or "Good is bad". It's a bit more complicated than that.

Some smart person may be able to write a formula that balances motion comfort against VMG. I think of it like this:

If I were on a long passage would I be willing to give up some motion comfort for boat speed if it meant that I arrived at my destination 3 days ealier? A week earlier? Ok, let's compromise and say 4 days earlier. That's four days in a snug harbor on the hook with access to fresh groceries and cold beer. That sounds comfortable to me.

And when you discus bows you MUST take it out of the relm of 2D geometry. We are nt talking about flat plane bows cutting through flat plane waves. Bows are volumes, not 2D planes, and it is possible to have a sharp angle of entry and volume forward at the same time.

But I'll be the devil's advocate here. There is this tendancy to cling to the old like we will will never have it better. That's silly. When I was 27 years old I designed the Valiant 40 and proved that new can be very good. I was ridiculed and attacked. John Neale attacked me. Ray Richards attacked me. It's a long list. It's hard to break loose from the past. But I prevailed and the "radical" offshore cruising boat I drew back then is now considered ultra conservative. Times change. Best to be ready to change along with them. Or not. Me? I'm a hog for good performance.
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  #46  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Zee:
I agree with you. It's the same problem with have with lots of things these days, i.e. "my way or the highway". It's too easy and convenient to just jump into one camp and buy their total argument, "Old is bad" or "Good is bad". It's a bit more complicated than that.

Some smart person may be able to write a formula that balances motion comfort against VMG. I think of it like this:

If I were on a long passage would I be willing to give up some motion comfort for boat speed if it meant that I arrived at my destination 3 days ealier? A week earlier? Ok, let's compromise and say 4 days earlier. That's four days in a snug harbor on the hook with access to fresh groceries and cold beer. That sounds comfortable to me.

And when you discus bows you MUST take it out of the relm of 2D geometry. We are nt talking about flat plane bows cutting through flat plane waves. Bows are volumes, not 2D planes, and it is possible to have a sharp angle of entry and volume forward at the same time.

But I'll be the devil's advocate here. There is this tendancy to cling to the old like we will will never have it better. That's silly. When I was 27 years old I designed the Valiant 40 and proved that new can be very good. I was ridiculed and attacked. John Neale attacked me. Ray Richards attacked me. It's a long list. It's hard to break loose from the past. But I prevailed and the "radical" offshore cruising boat I drew back then is now considered ultra conservative. Times change. Best to be ready to change along with them. Or not. Me? I'm a hog for good performance.
What about a compromise: an "antiquated design" that has comfort, ease of use, is sea kindly has an nice motion but is also fast (actually faster than the "fast modern designs" when it gets really dicey).....I have that in my boat. My boat has over 40,000nm of sea miles, the hull design was fast and the second owner made a few tweaks to make the rig faster and easily handled for single handed passage making. A friend of mine likes to try and balance modern high performance with simplicity once told me the problems with my rig...but later comented on how well I point, how balanced the rig is, how well it does in light air, he went on to point out that as the wind pipes up I start to leave the "plastic boats" in my wake and when it gets really dicey it is an extremely safe/comfortable boat to be in.
Granted there are alot of boats out there that can't get out of their own way in a light air that have given "old designs" a bad name, but this same characteristic also applies to new boats that were designed more to be weekend condo with a stick in them.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-08-2013 at 01:57 PM.
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  #47  
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Zee:
We all have our personal favorites. I've been at this professionally now for over 45 years and I'm still looking for the "perfect" boat.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Everything in life is some sort of compromise...it's just more apparent in boats. Also boats give a better opportunity to express who you are, that said they also give the "industry" a better opportunity to herd people the way they want. There is no perfect boat and what would be your perfect boat can change as you do...also what might be your perfect boat might be out of your reach.
Which is why instead of standing on the dock lusting after a 70' schooner I can kick back in the hammock of my own 30' cutter as I sail off into the tropical sunset.

My boat is not "the perfect boat" and I will probably never be able to get a better boat...so I am just making her a better boat.

Last edited by wolfenzee; 04-08-2013 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 04-08-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Interesting thread, even if it is six years old, and it's actually something I had been thinking about for a while.

Thanks, Bob and Wolf, for having an intelligent discussion as well
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Res:
It's fun chatting with the Wolf.
Wolf and I come from very, very different perspecives on this. This is how I make a living. Fantacy won't work for me. I have to be confident that I can give each client what he imagines is the perfect boat. And, I have to live with the result. I have two boats under construction now, to 60'ers and a third to begin, a 45'er. They are very different boats. They will all have one thing in common, excellant performance as measured by today's standards. No, they won't be AC cats or VOR boats. They will be cruising boats. But I have to keep my performance targets up or I might as well suggest all my clients go buy antiques. I do not have the luxury of discussing this in a philosophical, nebulous way. I have to produce a design, i.e. "cut here".

And there is the difference.
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