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Old 04-10-2013
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

I'm not sure the motion of even one particular boat is a simple issue. My Bristol 31.1, which has a rather round hull profile in cross section, and bow and stern overhangs, is a great place to be in SF Bay chop, with a really nice motion, exceptionally nice even, provided that you are sailing in a decent wind - especially to windward. The keel needs to be biting to provide the stabilisation.

We took the dodger down a year ago, and can count on the fingers of one hand the number of waves that got spray into the cockpit, last summer sailing in the slot.

Motoring dead into a chop is a different matter - she hobby-horses unpleasantly, and rolls if the chop is beam on.

Now I know these pros and cons I can operate accordingly. If you're going to motor down the estuary on the last day of Fleet Week, as 50 stink boats pass you at speed, make sure the main is up to damp the motion, or bring some sick bags!

So the concept of one boat - bad motion, another boat - good motion, is over simplified, anyway.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
My Bristol 31.1, which has a rather round hull profile in cross section, and bow and stern overhangs, is a great place to be in SF Bay chop, with a really nice motion, exceptionally nice even, provided that you are sailing in a decent wind - especially to windward. The keel needs to be biting to provide the stabilisation.
That sounds more like it's the wind that has to exert enough of pressure to the sails to make it okay. I know that the keel is an opposite force, but if it was only a matter of speed over the keel, downwind in your boat would be fine too.


Quote:
So the concept of one boat - bad motion, another boat - good motion, is over simplified, anyway.
No one said it was "simple", but there are tendencies and rules of thumb, as well as mathematics to model those tendencies and rules of thumb. Just like a trimaran will have more initial stability than a monohull, but it's too stable to self-right once it's on its head.

Of course we can generalise. If we couldn't there would be no virtue in having experience as a yacht designer. It would always be a stab in the dark whenever a new project was to be launched. We don't see luck-of-the-draw design very much.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
And the net result was that as these ideas filtered into cruising boat designs, it resulted in some wonderful cruising boats. Boats that are fast and forgiving, with comfortable motions and so on.
Jeff, would you mind giving us a few examples?
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
I guess you're right I did paint with too broad a brush and apologize. I was trying to speak to the derivatives of the solo racing boats where weight seem to detract from speed and the placement of that weight may significantly alter performance.... I cruise not race so remain enamoured of carrying significant "excess baggage".

I wonder if inside that paradigm of cruising designs derived from current racing designs there is a physical limit or significant restriction due to the design elements ..... I understand for the working elements ( reaching and spinnaker poles etc) excess weight is the enemy of safety and ease of working the boat But I was in my obstruse way trying to answer a more fundamental question. I was also trying to ask if the same applies to the modern "slice of pie" hull shape...

Paulo I was asking a question. ..
Outbound you don't have nothing to apologize and it is always nice to talk with you.

Regarding the kind of boats you talk about, those boats are used only for cruising, contrary than more moderate beam and heavier, like mine (Comet 41s) are used for cruising and racing. The reason is that the boats you mention, being heavily influenced by Open racing boats, have an horrible high number in what regards handicap racing. They are designed completely disregarding handicap racing so if you use them for racing you will be among the first ones to arrive but among the last ones on compensated time.

People that are interested in those boats are not the ones interested in club racing but interested in fast cruising and having fun while sailing.

As I have said those boats were developed to be easily sailed and to be fast, specially downwind but as Jeff pointed out they demand an experienced sailor, the same way a powerful light car demands an experienced driver, but that does not mean a young lad. Most that sail those boats are very experienced cruisers that had owned previously many cruising boats and because they are expensive, they tend to be over 40 years old and the majority is over 50.

I know that you like particularly bluewater cruising so in what regards that chapter one of the boats that it is based on Open boats (designed originally by Finot, one of the developers of solo racing boats) and it is intended mostly for bluewater cruising is the Cigale.

voilier aluminium sur mesure, voiliers de grande croisière, voilier dériveur alu, randonnée côtière | Alubat



The Cigale 14 has 14.67m, a beam of 4.40 and weights only 7 000 kgs. It is am aluminium boat and the boat has been around, being modified and modernized (including hull) for decades. It is a classical among those that like fast bluewater cruising. Its long success indicates how adapted the boat is for what it was designed to do and for the type of long range cruisers that favor fast boats and a particularly rewarding sailing.

But there is nothing as to hear about a owner and he have: WickedRob. He says about the Cigale:

"Cigale's are a Awesome boat. I have a Cigale 16 and love it.

The boat is easy to single hand or sail with short crew. My wife and I sail it by ourselves most of the time. The Aft solon is amazing, to sit at the table and be able to see out 270 degrees is such a joy. The boat handles better and easier than most fo the 40 foot boats that I have sailed. Nice light feel to the wheel in all conditions yet very responsive.

The designer Finot designed the 16 and then scaled the design for the 14. I have sailed both the 14 and the 16 for extended trips. The 16 has a mid travler vs the 14's aft travler. I find the Mid travler to be easier to handle than the 13 foot aft travler.

The boat sails very well to windward. On the way up to New England we beat for several days and found the boat to be extramly stable and tracked steady. We stowed the anchors and the dingy in the chain locker to add a little wieght to the bow. In 20 knots of wind and 35 degrees to the wind we were going along at 13 to 14 knots with out the ballast tanks full.

If you can get one of these you will not be disapointed."


Cigale 14 for circumnavigation

of course, this does not mean that you will like it, just that a substantial number of very experienced cruisers like them. They can enjoy and value different aspects of sailing and the ones that know me know that I don't defend a single type of boat for all sailors even for the same cruising grounds, but it is obviously that these type of boats suits a type of offshore cruiser that don't find them radical, just adapted to their needs.

We have more cruisers with this type of boats on the forum, mostly around the "interesting boats thread". We have Anders that has a Wauquiez Opium 39. The boat has 11.80m a beam of 4.18m, weights 6.5T. Anders had owned previously several cruising boats being the last one a Dehler 41 CR (not the actual model) a boat that fits very well on that definition of a "modern" comfortable boat as given by Jeff.

He is very satisfied with his new boat and he is the type of guy that does not cruise with a light load, since he cruises with the entire family, putting in his words: "loaded ... bikes, outboards, dingy, bow thruster, inlines, beer, wine etc"

Opium 39 - Présentation | Wauquiez

He says about the boat:

"Basic impression is as I wrote last year, after first season. As I feared you need to go the extreme, if I may say so, set up of a Pogo to be able to reach the figures Eric is qouting from his 12.50. I often get questions from people on the quay if the boat start planing early and to be honest, it does not. Basically you need big waves and a big gennaker in 20 knots + wind to start planing. So very much the same as any performance cruiser. But on the other hand we have so much fun sailing it anyway. As pointed out by Paulo, the feel of the boat is so crisp, like a Porsche, not a dull BMW and so comfortable so in the end you always arrive earlier than expected and with no bigger effort or problems.

Thanks to the twin rudders and good hull shape (?) you are always in control and it never stand on it's nose, as many modern wide beamed boats, but instead lifts is nose and take off, leaning on the aft leeward corner of the hull.

We try to find boats to compete with but always ends up with loosing them as tiny dots at the horizon behind us. Still without any magical numbers on the instruments but with a very high average speed due to good control and efficient set up. We also find the boat quite good at pointing, contrary to Erics note on the Pogo, both in low and high winds, but of course perhaps not as good as a competent sailed pure performance cruiser.

Switched to a bigger gennaker (130 sqm) this year and it is a very good size for the boat.

We still marvel at the excellent storage space and the very good look out of the boat through low and big cabin top windows and even level between cabin sole and cockpit....

I myself just sailed some 35 Nm in 4 hours and 14-16 knots of wind from 90 degrees TWA from Gothenbourg to the big in water boat show at the Hallberg-Rassy yard."


Interesting Sailboats

Interesting Sailboats

As you can see, no mention to discomfort and for one that it was used to sail in a very comfortable boat, if that was an issue he would have mentioned it, but you can PM him about that if you want.

Here you have him sailing:



And we have Eric that has a Pogo 12.50, a boat with 12.18m, 4.50m of beam weighting only 5500kg. Eric uses the boat with the family but has two big boys that like to sail fast so he keeps the boat light. He is also a very experienced sailor and had previously other sailboats. He is very satisfied with the boat that is everything he expected it to be. I will say again that this boat is a cruising boat, bought and sailed by cruisers and unsuitable to race (very bad rating).

Pogo 12,50 | Chantier naval STRUCTURES, constructeur des voiliers POGO (site officiel) :: STRUCTURES Shipyard, construction of sailing boat POGO (Oficial website)

The average time to buy one is more than an year. They have a long line of clients on the waiting list, among them another member that wants one to live in it permanently. So, I would say that even if this boat does not suit the average cruiser certainly suits cruisers that like to cruise for relatively long distances, fast and having fun doing it.

Eric says about his boat:

Last week we sailed the boat over to Nieuwpoort, which was a cold but nice and very valuable experience. I will be happy to discuss this in more detail later, but the bottom line is: the boat dislikes pointing or sailing dead downwind, keeping up the speed is the issue and then the VMG is always very correct. It is quite a different way of sailing compared to more traditional designs.

I mentioned before the statement of an experienced class 40 sailor: it’s just like a big 470 dinghy. I’ve been sailing a 470 for almost 30 years and could not agree more. “Sail the boat under the mast” and first try to build up the apparent wind. Then you get exhilarating sailing everywhere between a close and a broad reach.

Thanks a lot again for your thorough stability analysis of these “open 40” type of designs. Our first experience shows you are once again right on top.

The initial (form) stability is as spectacular as the 4m50 wide (and honestly quite disgraceful) beam. Even with myself and my two basketball centre players of sons on the same side, the boat hardly moves.

Under sail, more than 20° of heel only slows the boat down. But before you get there, you have already enjoyed the enormous power of both the hull (form stability) and the 3m deep, leaded keel (weight stability).

Between l’Aber Wrach (North Brittany) and Cowes we kept all the sail (full main + solent) up in 25 knts on a broad reach. With nice, long, 3m high waves and gusts up to 35 knts the average speed was around 14 knts with some wonderful long and thrilling surfs up to 21 knts, without ever feeling out of control.

So our first experience after 450 NM with the 12.50 is: WYSIWYG.
A big 470 with visually basic, but functional and in fact quite comfortable accommodation for our crew of 6.

It is very reassuring to know that this is also a very safe design...


Interesting Sailboats

Here you have him sailing with his family:

MOVIE:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u5fdw9f6s...A/SANY0428.MP4

There are families using this boat as a bluewater cruiser and for extensive voyage (the boat has a swing keel).

Bottom point: This type of boat does not suit all as a cruising boat or as a voyage boat but it is evident that suit some cruisers that find it very adapted to their sailing needs. I don't think it would suit so many if this kind of boats were so uncomfortable or radical as you seem to think.

Besides this type of boast (light and fast) that obviously are meant not for the main market and demand an experienced sailor (light and big sail area), the Open solo race boats remain an influence for the main stream boat market. The main reason has to do with the easiness, stability and forgiveness these type of hulls provide. These boats are unusually stable, sail with less than 20º of heel and provide such a stable platform that makes more easy and safe to move on the deck while sailing, or cooking for instance.

Here you gave a Benetau Sense 46, an heavier boat with an hull strongly influenced by Solo racers:



Obviously that bigger stability, easiness to sail downwind and bigger comfort in what regards sailing with little heel is payed in a lesser comfort going upwind with waves. Anyway I was surprised with the relatively good performance upwind. All that test sailed the boat were surprised and expected a worse behavior, in what regards speed, pointing ability and comfort.

This is not the type of boat that I favor (I prefer fast boats with a very good performance upwind) but it is obvious that if Benetau and almost all mass production boats went this way is because they know that for most sailors that buy their boats these characteristics and inconvenient are lesser than the advantages this type of hulls provide.

That has nothing to do with fantasies.

They are there to sell boats and make a profit not to make the boat their director would consider for him the more adequate (that would be a fantasy), but the boat that would cover and satisfy the needs of the biggest range of sailors and they have to be good at it otherwise they would be out of business: the competition is huge.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Speaking of technological improvements and motion comfort, one of the wonderful resources available today are videos, as PCP has generously contributed to many threads here. You can now see and judge motion comfort for yourself from the comfort of your home.

I have watched videos of the Open 60 and high tech carbon-fiber flat-bottom, canting keel, racing boats, and some of the derivative cruising boats, and I can safely say I never want to experience that.

I don't want to sail in a boat where I am hit by a fire hose blast of water every 30 seconds, where water runs over the deck and the cockpit is constantly awash, water draining out of the open transom, where every gust translates into an additional 10 degree heel angle, where I am forced to concentrate on minute adjustments continually in order to stay out of trouble.

Give me a moderate displacement, moderate, proven design for my casual, comfortable and yet fast solo sailing.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post

I have watched videos of the Open 60 and high tech carbon-fiber flat-bottom, canting keel, racing boats, and some of the derivative cruising boats, and I can safely say I never want to experience that.

I don't want to sail in a boat where I am hit by a fire hose blast of water every 30 seconds, where water runs over the deck and the cockpit is constantly awash, water draining out of the open transom, where every gust translates into an additional 10 degree heel angle, where I am forced to concentrate on minute adjustments continually in order to stay out of trouble.
Someone made the good point (in my book) recently that you can sail a fast boat slowly, but not a slow boat any faster.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
...
I have watched videos of the Open 60 and high tech carbon-fiber flat-bottom, canting keel, racing boats, and some of the derivative cruising boats, and I can safely say I never want to experience that.

I don't want to sail in a boat where I am hit by a fire hose blast of water every 30 seconds, where water runs over the deck and the cockpit is constantly awash, water draining out of the open transom, where every gust translates into an additional 10 degree heel angle, where I am forced to concentrate on minute adjustments continually in order to stay out of trouble.

...
Regarding the water over the cockpit that has to do with speed. The videos you have seen with water poring over where of sailboats doing over 20k, many times close to 30K. Put the same boat sailing at 14K and would will have a much more gentle motion, no water over the cockpit an huge reserve of stability and even so you would be going over 5K the speed a similar sized heavy boat would be making.

Regarding the need of adjustments on these boats you are simply plain wrong. These are the only boats that can sail on autopilot doing 25K with the skipper sleeping. They are designed for that. They hull shape is the one that is more forgiven and that can allow lesser sail adjustments without the autopilot going out of course.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

For the record, I love all kinds of boats, power and sail. I love nice row boats.
I also enjoy these chats about different boats. But I see a lot of this, "All those kinds of boats are bad. All these kinds of boats are good." I don't buy that at all. I know better.

I might have an advantage here due to my job and 52 years of varied sailing experiences. I have had the luck to sail almost all of my own designs and I have owned some. I also got involved with sailing crewing on race boats because that was the only way I was going to get out sailing.

The first boat I took cruising as skipper was when I was 16 years old. The boat was a
34' Ed Monk Sr. sloop. Nice long overhangs, fullish keel, kind of a Rhodes type. Very pretty. It was an awful boat to sail. It had a horrible weather helm and getting anywhere in this boat took a lot of work. But I kept racing. The next boat I took cruising as skipper was when I was 21 years old. The boat was a 42' staysail schooner in the Alden style. Nice long overhangs, bowsprit, full keel, a real looker. It was an awful sailing boat. Very bad helm balance and a bear to make go to weather. Mind you, I was a kid but I had done a lot of racing by that time and I knew sail trim.

The next boat I took cruising, I was probably 23 then, was a boat I chartered, a 26' Haida class designed by Ray Richards. This was a marvelous little boat, easy to sail and quite fast. This boat really alerted me to the benefits of performance for cruising boats.

Over the next few years I kept racing and delivering race boats to race venues. This was usually done by two or three of the crew members and often we would stretch the delivery out to be a mini-cruise just for the fun of it. At that time the IOR race boats had comfy interiors and to me seemed like very nice cruising boats. That's pretty much where the idea came from for the Valiant 40, i.e. what would happen if I took an IOR hull and then added some features that would make it a better cruising boat along with some aesthetic features to help convince Te traditional cruiser that the V-40 approach was valid. It worked. I met a lot and I mean a lot of resistance. Ray Richards the in an article in YACHTING that the Valiant 40 was "too light to be considered a serious offshore cruiser". Today many would see the V-40 as being too heavy. Oh well.

One of my very favorite designs of mine is the Baba 40. It's a heavy double ender with a full keel. It sails marvelously upwind and down. It has beautiful helm balance. Another favorite of mine is WHITE EAGLE ( now WILD HORSES). This is a 62, very light cruiser with a fin and bulb keel, spade rudder and a very tall cutter rig. The current owners have cruised extensively offshore in one of my Nordic 44's and now they are heading of again in WILD HORSES. You could hardly finds two boats more diverse than the Baba 40 and WILD HORSES. Yet, to each owner the boat is just fine and well suited to the job even if the "job" is pretty much the same thing. I have designed an extremely wide range of cruising types and matched to the owner's subjective preferences, sailing style and sailing skills they can all work just fine. My own personal preference is towards the performance side of design. I want a comfy and safe boat that is very fast.

That's where I stand. I try to evaluate each boat as an individual. "Bad boats" are not confined to any one type any more than are "good boats".
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Now, on the subject of how much you can load a light boat compared to how much you can load a heavy displ boat:

Take two 40'ers, one displs 24,000 lbs. and the other displs 14,000 lbs. They have similar DWL's and slimier beams. If you measure the boat's "footprint" in the water, we call this the "water plane" (WPA water plane area) you will find that they are quite similar. Let's for convenience say they share a common footprint in terms of square footage. Let's use
248 sq. ft. for the WPA. Now multiply that area times 64 and then divide that by 12 and you have the "lbs. per inch immersion" or 1,320 ls. So for every 1,320 lbs. you load on the boat the boat will sink an inch. Of course as you immerse more and more boat the WPA will increase and with it the Lbs per inch immers. But for now just think 1,320 lbs.

This number is the same for the light boat as it is for the heavier boat. It's a function of WPA and not displ. So you come down the dock with your van and unload 2,640 lbs. of cruising gear and begin to load t onto your heavy cruising 40'er. You dock mate begins to do the same onto his lighter 40' cruising boat. When both of you are done loading your boats both boats will have sunk 2". But I think the lighter boat will still perform just fine and still be the better performing boat. We can argue just what "performance" means some other time. For now let's use VMG as the criteria.

The problem for your dock mate with his light boat is that while you both share a WPA you do not share hull volume. The heavy boat has much more hull volume, 156 cu. ft. more to be precise. So the heavy boat will be far better suited to stowing that 2,640 lbs. of gear and be far better at stowing it low in the boat.

For the designer the biggest benefit of displ in an offshore cruising boat is tankage. Light boats don't have the hull volume for big tanks. On the other hand you might have a water maker on your light boat and the fact that you sail so much better, especially in light air means you will motor less and require less fuel capacity. Here again, sailing style may be the biggest variable.

You won't find the answer to these types of questions in Skene's. Skene's avoids answers to this type of question. Too much personal preference and sailing style involved to produce a hard number answer. But therein lies the fun for me as I try hard to match the boat with the owner.

That's all I have to say about that.
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Re: Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort

Thinking of what I would like instead of my boat:
For a "modern design" I would choose a Scanmar 40, They were fast/powerful boats, sea worthy (great "sea boats"). comfortable accommodations and pleasing to the eye over all well thought out/constructed, but are hard to find.
For a design that better fits my personal style I would choose the Robert Perrry design Hans Christian 36 or the Harwood Ives design Hans Christian 38T (William Atkin , designer of my boat among others is credited with influencing the design).

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