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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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christyleigh christyleigh is offline
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Tomaz, Have you contacted Benne to see if they have ever made or contracted a hard dodger for your model boat. I would start there. Out on the Nauticat lists there is a group trying to get together a group order for hard dodgers on the 43 or 40. Nauticat and some other Northern European sailboat makers offer them... for $,$$$.$$ .... of course. I mean the real HARD dodger with tempered glass and metal frame that will take a wave.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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I love the dodger/dog house built into the design of the Gemini. Is visability somewhat restricted, sure - worth every spray stopping bit of it. Fair weather sailing isn't what I bought the boat for - and I can stand in the rain and wind dockside if that's all I wanted.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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This is my old post from an earlier discussion:

I will warn everyone in advance that I know this is simply my personal opinion, and I aready know that I am probably the odd man out on this, but I have never found dodgers all that useful, and frankly, unless the boat was carefully designed to use a dodger, I have found them to be a real pain in the butt. I must admit some of my strong dislike for dodgers results from the type and size of boat that I prefer to own, my personal experience designing and sailing with them, the region in which I sail, and the type of sailing that I do.

When I worked as a yacht designer it became immediately apparent that on most boats under 40 feet, (the size that I prefer to own) a dodger ends up being a serious compromise between restricting access to the companionway and deck from the cockpit, restricting visibility from some key sailing positions (i.e. steering from the slot), limiting gaining access the winches and control lines lead to the aft end of the house and being able to stand in a proper position to use and swing full length winch handles, being able to see out of the cockpit at all angles of heel, windage, and allowing the boom to be low enough to allow adequate mainsail area without raising the vertical center of effort. And frankly the gains from having a full width dodger (vs a scuttle for offshore work) really seem minimal compared to their liability.

I am not a fair weather sailer. If there is a breeze, and the water is not frozen, I am likely to be out there. My working rule is that I try not to sail in temperatures below 40, but often do sail down to temperatures approaching freezing. I also sail in summer temperatures which in this reason can, but rarely approach 100 deg. I sail in rain and snow (but like most folks prefer not to). I routinely beat into a short chop in high winds. Even with that in mind, I find dodgers next to useless, (They really make the cockpit hotter in summer, (blocking cooling breezes) and colder in winter (casting shade on areas that might be warmed by the sun) providing little real protection in any condition).

Perhaps, because I am a single-hander that believes that it is necessary to run all control lines back to the cockpit, the aft end of the cabin top becomes a critical area for winches and stoppers. To me, being able to stand full height, with your body in a position to efficiently swing a full-sized winch handle through a full circle, when using these winches to raise halyards, or reef on the fly requires is a safety issue. I extremely prefer my mainsheet and traveller to be located in the cockpit, and consider cabin top travellers an unsafe structural and operational compromise so at least I am not trying to operate the mainsheet from under the dodger as is so often the case on modern production boats. But most dodgers for under 40 footers are designed so that there is no where to stand and swing a full sized winch handle. If they are tall enough to allow a normal human being to stand and swing a handle, they are typically too tall and wide to make sense on a sub-40 foot boat.

When I look at the potential advantages, I see few. Again, this partially results from my belief that if a boat routinely throws spray back into the cockpit in normal heavy air sailing conditions, it is a defect in the design of boat that would discourage me from buying that model. In my mind, and in that case, the dodger becomes a bandaid for an inferior boat design and one that I would not purchase. But even in a boat that has a spray problem, a properly proportioned dodger, generally does not deflect enough spray to really keep the cockpit all that much drier than without the dodger. (I suggest that you look at your dodger at the end of a hard day of beating into a chop, as I have been doing on a variety of boats. You will be amazed how dry they are

Of course you can oversize a dodger to get more room below and protect from spray but at that point, you have begin to compromise sailing ability, especially at the heavier wind end of things.

In the end I prefer to 'get real', meaning dress for the conditions and live out in them.

All of that said, I like a properly designed hard dodger, or at a fixed winshield better than the typical soft dodger mainly because the better visibility through lexan vs eisenglass. But a properly designed hard dodger needs to be properly engineered so that it won't be a liability. They deck needs to be beefed to take the huge loads imposed when a wave comes aboard and tries to take out the bolts that hold the dodger to the deck along with a piece of the deck. A properly built hard dodger for a small boat needs to be very light and yet very strong. From my way of thinking, coring and carbon fiber are not out of the question. Lastly to be of any serious use, they should have a windshield wiper of some kind, and so the windshield itself should be laminated safety glass so it won't scratch.

Jeff
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Jeff...I hate my dodger. Its heavy, its ugly and it spoils the looks of my boat.

However, I have one because I sail with my wife and Children and the dodger is a nice comodity for them. Since you sail alone, I understand your points.

Now, My dodger was designed to still allow the lines aft, has a portion that opens in the middle to allow for a summer breeze, and, is fully lowered should I need.

If it wasn't for my wife, I wouldn't have one. For most people, "less hardcore sailing" the dodger is a nice commodity, and a protection.. I see it as such....
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Alex,

One of my big gripes is being able to get my body over the winches to quickly crank out an adjustment with a full length winch handle. The other is the contortion required to get between the bridge deck and the dodger. I have always admired your boat for its clever resolution of difficult design issues. Were able to develop a deck plan and dodger that mitigates these issues?

Jeff
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Jeff, good discussion of dodger pros/cons. I ditto Giulietta's comments. For family sailing, a dodger is extremely useful. Yes, I'd prefer a proper hard dodger, but they are rare on small-mid-size boats and can look ungainly. Ours is a "companionway" or "scuttle" dodger, and despite the advantages of this type for sailing, I wish it was more of the full-size variety:


Our boat is extremely dry, rarely ships any spray. But we would not be without the dodger. It allows us to leave the companionway open when its raining, and provides a storage area for miscellaneous cockpit cushions etc at anchor (to keep them dry from the dew or rain). It also serves as the forward support for our sun awning/cockpit enclosure, creating an extra "room" while at anchor even in the rain.

This conversation shows how sailing style and circumstances influence our design ideals. I can see how someone that sails solo and/or prefers to race might not want a dodger. But if whether or not you go sailing again hinges on the comfort of your family, you will have other -- much higher -- priorities. And Jeff explicitly said as much in his comments.

Now, here's a hard dodger on a Cape Geprge 31 that I thought looks pretty decent -- leading me to wonder if I (with design help) could pull it off on our 31-footer:

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Jeff, when you have walked a mile in my rain soaked moccasins of a sailor from BC, I'll listen to your opinion. I know this sounds like a put down but it isn't. Many products are suited to one area versus another. For example, BC backpackers copied their California counter part in the 80's by purchasing Gortex Backpacking boots. These boots which are great for earthen moisture parched California climes are not suited for BC monsoon mud. Gortex does not do well when it gets dirty. Trust us out here, the Washington, Alaska, BC coastal area is the Gortex parka capital of the world.

Lots of products like that, suitable here, not suitable there. One of the world's great mysteries to me was why so many were drinking bottled water. It wasn't until I went to LA that I learned how crappy urban drinking water can be - I drank bottled water on the cruise ship leaving from there. Yet here in BC with great drinking water, we copy LA - again why pay the extra money, especially when tests are showing bottled water can have problems as well?

For me, the dodger isn't about the spray over the bow, I like that - its about the day I was in the miserable rain about one month ago and the sole in my cabin was drenched in the companion way area as I had naive newbies manning the helm, while I stayed below.

So when you are prepared to stand in my rain soaked moccasins in the salon by the companionway as the rain drips in, then I'll listen to you.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Being from New England, where the water can be very cold in the early and late parts of the season, and I tend to put my boat in earlier and haul it later than many of my marina neighbors, I found having a good dodger an essential. While sailing my boat downwind is relatively dry....upwind is often a different story—especially since I'm often out in SCA conditions.

The dodger on my boat isn't a full-size dodger, since the genoa winches are outboard of the dodger on the cabin top, but is a bit bigger than a companionway only dodger. One of my crew likes to slide the companionway shut and curl up under the dodger to sleep while we're under way—she's cute so I let her get away with it.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post

I have always admired your boat for its clever resolution of difficult design issues. Were able to develop a deck plan and dodger that mitigates these issues?
Thank you.

That's the beauty and advantages of having a boat built the way YOU want. You can think every detail over and over until its right....I had a lot of fun doing it too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Alex,

One of my big gripes is being able to get my body over the winches to quickly crank out an adjustment with a full length winch handle. The other is the contortion required to get between the bridge deck and the dodger.
In my case, the cabin winches are only for the halyards and Boomjack. I don't normally (when cruising which is when the dodger is on) need to do much manouvering there other than a few adjustments and hoisting. so the dodger is not a problem...

True is the cabin is wide, thus the dodger being also generous.

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2007
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I saw this dodger on the web which I find very nice.
I asked the owner - it was home build.
I hope i do not violate some rules if I post this link:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...7&d=1191991827
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