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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2007
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Hard dodgers

For a racer a dodger is just additional drag.
But for a cruiser it may be essential equipment.

The only type I know from my experience is soft (fabric) dodger and there are many limitations - the biggest for me is that plastic windows do not offer a good visibility (at lease those I saw).
So let us discuss hard dodgers.
What do you think about them?
How would you rate the added drag you can not stow away,
changed look of a sailboat, what about a gig storm, ...

What do you think of different constructions materials:
- all wood )frames and surfaces (obvious for wooden boat, but what about for GRP boat)
- wood frames covered with plastic
- core material and plastic
- steel frames (maybe even from an old soft dodger) and plastic
- any other materials
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Old 10-22-2007
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My boat has a hard (some kind of composite) top, with removable (soft) front and side panels. I'm considering redesigning for a solid front panel.

I wouldn't be without my dodger. In bad weather, I spend most of my time there, as my companionway is such I can stand in it, under the dodger, and just be a step away from the wheel and autopilot.
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Old 10-22-2007
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Tomaz,

I like them.

When I speak of hard dodgers, I mean one that is a solid structure with a solid frame, solid-paned windows, solidly attached to the deck or incorporated into the deck design at construction. On a fibreglass boat it would normally be constructed of fibreglass (probably cored), and on a metal boat it would be steel or aluminum. With polycarbonate (Lexan) window panes.

I have only ever owned and sailed on boats with "soft" dodgers (Sunbrella fabric and flexible plastic windows spread over a collapsible stainless tube frame). Soft dodgers give good service, but when the weather gets REALLY bad you have to fold them down so they won't get destroyed by boarding seas (I've had to do that). So when you need them most, you can't use them. I'm sure the windage of the hard dodger is an issue, but in my mind it's a worthwhile trade-off.

Here's a photo of a boat we saw this past weekend with a hard dodger that I liked:



I wish more boats came equipped with hard dodgers from the builder. They are expensive to make, but so are soft dodgers and the canvas then has to be replaced at significant expense every so often. I have sketches for a hard-dodger retro-fit for our boat. It's difficult to make the proportions work on a small-mid-sized sailboat, though. Here's an article by a couple that built one for their boat: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37194

Last edited by JohnRPollard : 10-22-2007 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 10-22-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRPollard View Post
Tomaz,

I like them.

When I speak of hard dodgers, I mean one that is a solid structure with a solid frame, solid-paned windows, solidly attached to the deck or incorporated into the deck design at construction. On a fibreglass boat it would normally be constructed of fibreglass (probably cored), and on a metal boat it would be steel or aluminum. With polycarbonate (Lexan) window panes.

I
On that boat in the article you mentioned that thing looks horrible. Sadly that's the case for hard dodgers on anything under 40'. The only way you can make one that looks OK is to have it so low that you'd need seriously agile young muscles to duck under the thing. Admittedly some soft dodgers also have this problem but at least you can fold them away when not needed. What's need is some kind of fold up centre section but this is hard to engineer in a way that would not overly weaken the structure.

A sea capable of removing your soft dodger does not need to get much bigger to be able to take out your hard.
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Old 10-22-2007
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I have been very negative on hard dodgers, but I am coming around to them and actually put thought into one this weekend.

The negatives are that it is a terrible windage point in a hurricane (or even a storm). You are not taking it down either. Let's also not forget about the weight they add - which can be considerable depending on the design. Also, in hot weather when beating, you cannot fold the thing all the way down. Now, most have lexan windown that open up, but it is not really the same.

However, for the other 99% of the time, it is nice. I personally do not think they look bad at all (Giu will have some comment for me, I am sure). I also like the ability to perm-mount red lights, fishing poles, hang lines, a fan, and solar panels, to name a few.

I have sailed on boats with and without. I would now consider one, but for the expense would probably end up spending the money on something else. But that is just me. Others may feel different.

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Old 10-22-2007
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I am going to put in a hard bimini this winter in the form of a low arch (my sailing helm is an 18" inch drop into a "footbath" and five feet clearance above deck will suffice).

There will be uprights hard welded to the deck, with warp lines on reels mountable. The "roof" will be a removable stock SS frame with a modest cloth cover, but the main shade will come from the trio of solar panels mounted above. Off the corners will be external antenna mounts for VHF and GPS and maybe a nice truck horn...

Stripped, it will merely be a big welded C-shaped pipe fit for hard points/padeyes and other safety gear (EPIRB/MOB).

Soft dodgers never seem to last, and using big panels for shade is a two birds/one stone proposition.
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Old 10-23-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRPollard View Post
I wish more boats came equipped with hard dodgers from the builder.
I agree, but luckily for us and unusually the builder of our sailboat pretty much insisted that he build it with a hard dodger even though we had originally selected a design without - after his designer produced some sketches we became convinced and would always do the same again. Obviously not something one would put on a race boat and I don't think I would bother on a weekend or sheltered water type sailboat either.

Some things, apart from the tricky care needed with the height, length and profile so one can get down the companionway but still keep the height sleek, that I have picked up along the way -

As mentioned by another already, I also believe that 40 foot is about the absolute smallest boat one can build a completely hard dodger on without it looking very utilitarian. Of course, from what one sees many seem happy with the very utilitarian look (even "garden shed" look in many instances ) but seeing those discourages those with other points of view in the aesthetics department from going the hard dodger way (well, that is what had originally discouraged us anyway ).

It seems to me from what I have seen that it is next to impossible for an amateur to design one that has a nice profile and fits the boat, even on a big boat. A lot of care needs to be taken with the front and side profiles, window shapes and radiusing/coving of corners all sympathetic with the rest of the boat.

The windows should be toughened glass, not acrylic or polycarbonate (and while I have looked at a lot of well designed dodgers over the years I've actually never seen one of those that has not used glass). It is best if the glass is tinted high performance glass, both from looks and also for keeping the underneath cool in sun, but if so must be very careful with it if navigating through it as it affects the colours of navaids and makes some other things less easy to pick out eg small or dark items floating on the sea (tinted glass is normally prohibited in windows used for navigation in commercial vessels in most countries).

Especially on smaller vessels where a good looking profile is harder to obtain, I believe that if a utilitarian look is wished to be avoided then the glass should be direct fitted (ie not frames but fixed with a sealant/adhesive such as Sikaflex 296) and recessed so its outer surface is flush with the outside surface of the dodger.

If the boat is steel, then the dodger should never be steel (as has been suggested) in my opinion due to the big weight disadvantage raising the boat's centre of gravity (our boat is steel, but the dodger is built from glassed ply/timber). It is also difficult to design a metal one that doesn't look boxy unless the boat is quite big and a lot of radiused edges and special corner pieces are folded/pressed up - also, unless it it big enough to insulate and line, a metal one will be VERY hot underneath in warm climates.

It should be low enough so that when standing at the helm one can see over it, especially if tinted glass is used and even if clear glass is used it becomes opaque with caked salt from spray. But in the end for shorter helmsmen they may find they need to build a portable stand for behind the wheel (as a friend has found he has had to do for himself).

The relationship between the sides of the dodger and the helmsman's position when standing to one side of the wheel should allow a clear view along the side decks for when berthing, etc (I do know of some sailboats where this is not so). Also, I normally helm from one side of the wheel and in our case the nav lights on the pulpit are placed so that they are the same distance outboard from the boat's centre-line as the sides of the dodger are - so when standing at the wheel looking along the side of the dodger with the nav light on that side in line with it I have a accurate dead ahead bearing for steering towards an afar object (something I otherwise find hard to do accurately unless standing on the centre-line of the boat - I have seen others place tape on the pulpit).

Along the top of the aft edge of the roof a low raised edge should extend across the whole width - apart from giving something to grip when standing behind it, it stops drips dripping over the aft edge from off the top. There should be athwart ships camber in the roof so water runs off to the side.

If there are knees for strength in the aft upper corners then they look much better if set inside the dodger forwards a little rather than flush with the aft roof/side edges.

Windage does not seem to be much of an issue for us (but our dodger is as low as is possible) and while we have not tried hurricanes (as was wondered about by another ) we have no problem motoring directly into 40 knot plus winds even tho' we are not over powered (a little over 4hp/ton laden). Our boat is shallow in the forefoot and with overhang so I had hoped that maybe the windage of the dodger aft would counteract somewhat the tendency of the bow to blow off when manoeuvring at slow speeds under power across wind but that has not proved the case.

We have anchored in 65-70 knot sustained winds gusting higher and not had a problem. I think that in general the dodger helps keep the boat head to wind under anchor in light conditions but that may contribute to more "sailing around" when anchored in swirling gusty winds as may be experienced down in narrow bays, etc.

All just my opinion but my lengthy "rant" may be of use to some . In the end, whatever they look like, they are bludy useful when it is wet, windy or for somewhere to duck under when a big lump of water comes across the decks.
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Old 10-23-2007
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Most good dodgers nowadays have lexan windows - which do not lend themselves to being folded down - so as a result few "soft" dodgers really make use of the so-called foldability.

Hardtop or solid dodgers are even more expensive than a standard soft dodger, so I think that discourages them from the start. And, as pointed out, few attempts at a hard dodger really end up looking good on the boat.

But from a practical standpoint, given that few dodgers really get collapsed, a hard dodger makes a lot of sense.

Many a purist, though, will resist a "windshield" and a solid structure.
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Old 10-23-2007
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Old 10-26-2007
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This seems to be an interesting compromise between a solid dodger and a canvas dodger. I've talked to one person who added this and he loves it.
Don't know much more about them.
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